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650 Timing Chain

  • Thread starter Thread starter G0FHM
  • Start date Start date
G

G0FHM

Guest
Hi Guys,

The new timing chain for the Katana has arrived.

Trouble is, it's a solid crimp link as opposed to a hollow rivet link.

My existing chain tool will only handle rivet links - It will split it, but not join it!

Is there a DIY way of doing it? (something I'm hoping to avoid if I can) or what tool will I need to do the job?

Obviously it needs to be done properly....

Thanks,

J
 
Unless the engine has 100k miles on it the chain is most likely fine. Did you measure the length per the service manual, and if so, what length did you measure? You might be shooting yourself in the foot with this chain changing business.

As for changing the chain, sorry can't help. Think you need special equipment and/or the right kind of master link with crimpable pin.
 
Ed,

I've said this before in another thread.... It's well and truly knackered, has a major slack spot (1/2" up and down movement between the sprockets) and that spot can be heard coming across the top as it comes round.

The engine is high mileage (69k), and I'm not prepared to risk it for the sake of a ?30 for a chain!

J
 
G0FHM said:
Ed,

I've said this before in another thread.... It's well and truly knackered, has a major slack spot (1/2" up and down movement between the sprockets) and that spot can be heard coming across the top as it comes round.

The engine is high mileage (69k), and I'm not prepared to risk it for the sake of a ?30 for a chain!

J
Click to expand...

You can't judge by how much the chain moves between the cams. Measure between pins per the manual then judge. Bet you the chain measures in spec. It's always the UK guys that think their cam chain is knackered. Must be some thing in the water over there.
 
Well I have read a line in a book that says 650 timing chains are very well known to be noisy, and have led to many a top end rebuild, only for the owner to still have the noise when it has been done... So I know all about the noise properties!

I'll bet a pound to a pinch of wotsit it's knackered.... Turn it to a good section between the cams and there is minimum up and down movement!

I'll borrow my calipers back over the weekend and check it.... But I don't hold out much hope of it being any good!

J
 
Come on Ed, you know 100,000 miles of wear can happen in a minute if it's run dry, overheated, run with crap oil and never changed, or a number of other things can happen to it. While some chains last forever, not all do. Cam chains have been known to break, even on lower mileage bikes. I have one in my shop right now with a broken cam chain. You could hear the chain clicking over the sprockets at idle for thousands of miles before it broke.
It's not pretty. Quite knackered, actually. The whole engine is.

But the part about the good section running tight leads me to suspect the cam chain sprockets also. Could be either one I think. Dunno.

Sorry can't help with the master link technique. I haven't ever done it except with endless chains or the rivet type links. I have heard there are some cam chains sold with the easy clip type masters, but they are frowned upon by people who do engines.

Maybe the best answer is to flip the engine over, remove the bottom case and put in a new endless chain? If it's worth doing it may be worth doing right.
 
tkent02 said:
Maybe the best answer is to flip the engine over, remove the bottom case and put in a new endless chain? If it's worth doing it may be worth doing right.
Click to expand...
I have never changed an endless cam chain, but don't you have to slip it over the end of the crank?

Wouldn't that also require removing the top of the engine so you can completely remove the crank and slide the chain over the pistons? :-k

.
 
Steve said:
Wouldn't that also require removing the top of the engine so you can completely remove the crank and slide the chain over the pistons? :-k

.
Click to expand...

Engine upside down. Remove bottom case half. Lift up crankshaft by one end. Replace chain. Lower crankshaft. Replace case half with Threebond or whatever.
Put the engine right side up and install the camshafts and vave cover.

No need to open the top end at all, other than to fish the new chain through the valve cover and put the cams in place. Everything below the valve cover can stay there.
 
Judging chain wear by how much slack there is between the cams is a faulty technique. The cams park themselves depending on what valve is pushing on what lobe, which can advance or retard the cam(s) enough to create/eliminate slack between them. The only way to properly judge cam chain wear is to measure. Preemptively changing the chain at 69k isn't the worst decision I've read about here, but make sure the proper tools are used to join the chain or better yet, split the crankcase and use an endless chain.
 
tkent02 said:
Engine upside down. Remove bottom case half. Lift up crankshaft by one end. Replace chain. Lower crankshaft. Replace case half with Threebond or whatever.
Click to expand...
Sounds too easy. Still trying to wrap my mind around how to get the chain to the middle of the crank without also going past two pistons and connecting rods.
icon_shrug.gif


.
 
Steve said:
Sounds too easy. Still trying to wrap my mind around how to get the chain to the middle of the crank without also going past two pistons and connecting rods.
icon_shrug.gif


.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah. You lift the pistons up and out with the crank. Put them back in once the new chain is on, leaving it all connected. I haven't actually done it, but I looked at one of my opened up engines while I read a thread about it a while ago, it all seemed like it would work. The guys saying it worked were some of the guys who do engine work a lot more often than I do.
 
tkent02 said:
Oh yeah. You lift the pistons up and out with the crank. Put them back in once the new chain is on, leaving it all connected.
Click to expand...
Apparently much like funneling the rings into the bottoms of the cylinders when doing a top-end rebuild, but without the expense of the top-end gaskets.

Having gone through a few top-end jobs (am doing one right now, in fact), and having seen how difficult it is to feed the rings into the tapered ends of the cylinders when I can actually reach them, I can only imagine the 'fun' of trying to do that when the crank is blocking your view and access. :-k

.
 
Looking at the engine sitting on my bench, it didn't look all that hard. Two people required for sure, but it didn't look bad. The sleeves stick out below the case, there is the same amount of space between the piston top and the crankshaft as there is right side up. One guy holds the crank while the other stuffs the rings in. I have a 550/675 engine to assemble this week if I get to it, maybe I'll do it that way as an experiment. Finding the second set of hands and enough round tuits will be the hard part either way.
 
New chain fitted, and done.

Big improvement - The noise has stopped.

Looking at the old chain, the lateral movement is severe. It was well worn, and I made a good call by deciding to replace it.

Having shown the old one to a bike mechanic of 20 years experience, he said he had never seen one that bad, that hadn't already failed!

Looks like I dodged a bullet there!

J
 
By the way, I borrowed the correct tool for the job.

Like a drive chain tool, but much smaller and with different sized tips to mushroom the ends of the pins.

I did it the "quick and durty" way of removing the cams and linking the 2 chains together and threading it through on the crank. That was a bit of a heart in mouth moment ;-) Cam sprockets look good - No abnormal wear or "hooking" apparent. Obviously I cannot say the same for the crank sprocket, as I haven't seen it!

I've done it this way "for now", as it's riding season and it's more than my life is worth to have it off the road for any amount of time (Hell hath no wrath like a woman without a bike).

Over the winter I will be pulling the engine and splitting the cases to change the gear cluster anyway, so an endless chain may well find it's way in. I want to do a complete stripdown and check and if required change any bottom end related bits (not that there is much wrong - The oil pressure light goes off before it fires!).

I did the top end a while ago and installed new rings, and have imposed a 4000rpm limit for 800 miles (which is probably more than it will cover this summer anyway), so hopefully all will stay good.

J
 
G0FHM said:
I did the top end a while ago and installed new rings, and have imposed a 4000rpm limit for 800 miles (which is probably more than it will cover this summer anyway), so hopefully all will stay good.

J
Click to expand...


Surprised to hear about the chain wear. Good job dealing with that. Would you please measure elongation per the service manual procedure and post the results here? I'd like to know if the manuals procedure accurately assess the wear present in the chain, or if there are other types of wear in the system.

As for your top end break in process, most folks around here subscribe to a more aggressive break in methodology. The rings need load in order to seat into the cylinder wall, and babying around during the break in defeats that purpose. Here is one such methodology that has gained wide acceptance...http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm Personally, I think that method is a little extreme, but the idea being to load the engine from the beginning and not go too easy is good. Aggressive riding using a city driving cycle works perfectly. Lots of engine load, no lugging. Vary the throttle position and rpm. After 50 miles or so of that get out on the highway and do some pulls to further load the engine. All this is well covered in the archives in older threads around here. You might want to do some more research (if it's not too late) to educate yourself.

Good luck
 
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Hi Ed,

I'll dig the calipers out and measure the chain pin distance as per the factory manual, and report back. I didn't really do that initially, as my "gut" told me it was shot going by the noise it was making (especially it slapping on the top guide when pulling tight). I think the lateral movement proved that it was shot also - Obviously there was wear there for it to move so much!

I'm the same with timing belts on cars.... I change them at least 10k miles before the manual specifies!

As far as the "breaking in" goes, I've always been bought up to believe that it should be treated as gently as possible for a good few miles (a pal bought a brand new Ninja 636 a couple of months ago and Kwak specify 4k for 800 miles), keep the engine in the right gear for the rev range and don't labour it (ie no 20mph in 4th gear and whacking the gas tap open). I've seen (car) racers blow freshly rebuilt engines to the point of destruction as they've given them too much, too quickly as they have still been tight!

I'm even more paranoid with an air/oil cooled lump, as there is no temperature needle to keep an eye on! :D

I'll read the link you posted, and try and digest it!

Cheers,

J
 
G0FHM said:
a pal bought a brand new Ninja 636 a couple of months ago and Kwak specify 4k for 800 miles

Cheers,

J
Click to expand...

Can you imagine the liability if Kawasaki told everyone to use lots of throttle from mile 0 on their new bike? Wow! Yet, that's exactly what the engine needs. I worked for an OEM auto maker and each new engine is dyno tested before install. Basically, the engine is started and immediately the dyno applies heavy throttle and the rpm's are raced. The exact opposite of what the sticker on the gauges tell the new owner to do.
 
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Hi Ed,

I may have screwed my pooch then, as the bike now has 24 miles on the clock! :o Plus time running freely in the garage whilst setting the carbs etc up.....

I'll take it out Monday for a bit of a workout, the weather is going to be too bad to do any heroics this weekend.

One thing that does disturb me in the "how to", is the fact he keeps going on about "modern engineering" giving a finer hone pattern etc. This engine is at least 32 years old, and has not been anywhere near a machine shop - The bores and pistons were within standard tolerance, but the rings were well worn (the end gaps were well outside specification, and they had lost their springiness), so it was a hone to knock the glaze off of the bores and new standard rings.

I have no pressure from the crankcase breather now, whereas before the rebuild a couple of seconds of the thumb over the breather trick gave major pressure in the crankcase and a loud whoosh when taking the tumb away! yes, I know.... I'm lucky to have not trashed any oil seals! :D

Right, I'm off to measure the old chain!

J
 
Ed,

FYI, the timing chain was 0.4mm over the "service limit" as specified in the manual, but the lateral movement was the most disturbing. Over a 6 inch portion of chain, there was nearly an inch of movement either way. Compared to the new chain which I checked on the stripdown blow!

I had to strip the top end down over the weekend, as it developed a serious smoking problem. It always did smoke a bit, which I put down to the new rings, but it was getting progressively worse, so I had no option but to strip it down and investigate, and pray that it was nothing serious.

Within 50 miles, the new valve stem seals that I fitted during the original rebuild had failed!

Normally, every VSS that I have removed in the past has been like pulling teeth - long nosed grips, tugging, twisting and lots of grunting, resulting in a trashed seal. When I fitted the new ones, they went on with a nice satisfying click. When I went to check them, I found that I could tease them off of the end of the guide with the end of a screwdriver, not via the bottom of the seal, but on the side! :mad:

The new seals were a much tighter fit, and to be doubly sure I put a smear of Silicon RTV around the end of the valve guide where the seal sits.

What was wrong with the original seals, I don't know. I can only assume that the originals were the wrong size that had been put in the gasket set. Putting the new ones on was a much harder job than the originals!

I whipped the block off, just to check the ring gaps etc and they were all fine. I suspected VSS's, as the smoke was at it's worse at idle and immediately on opening the gas after idle. Butterflies closed = High vacuum on the induction stroke, therefore sucking oil past the seal.....

Now we have a Katana that doesn't smoke :)

J
 
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