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Thread: GS Charging System Health

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    posplayr's Avatar
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    Default GS Charging System Health

    EDIT 2/27/2014 : Read about the latest SERIES R/R's that are available
    Stator Pages

    READ ABOUT my install of the COMPU-FIRE 3 PHASE SERIES R/R

    See also the ORIGINAL GS Charging System Health With pics here (PDF file <1MB) Thanks Cliff
    Want to just get a feel for how the charging is working? Do a Quick_Test

    5/30/2011 moved the background here
    http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...8&postcount=10

    More grounding background moved here.
    http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...6&postcount=26

    Summary of products I use to prepare and maintain electrical, clean and prevent surface corrosion.
    Recommended Products for Preparing Electrical Connections



    START HERE: The three steps to GS Charging health











    STEP #1.) GOOD R/R CONNECTIONS On the typical non sense wire R/R there are 5 wires. Make sure these have very good connections to the rest of the system by either:
    • (1) High quality contacts (like spades with dielectric grease)
    • (2) Direct physically twist and solder with shrink tubing.

    I prefer #2 as I seldom have to remove the connections and the solder keeps out corrosion.

    Just for reference, the 5 wires are:

    R/R (+) - RED charging system output
    R/R (-) - Black (typically with a ring lug) Charging system return
    3 stator wires which are W/G, Y and W/B if OEM or typically all Yellow if say from an aftermarket stator

    Here is a picture of an 81 GS750E with stock harness and an OEM R/R . First thing I did was cut off the burned and melted OEM connectors from the harness. The original OEM R/R was fired so it was thrown out. These connectons avoid the stator loop that goes through the left hand headlamp switch.

    There are a few different fuse box styles, some better than others. If you cant clean the contacts tehn the fuse holders will probbaly over heat melt the plastic and short out. On the later E bikes after 80-81 the fuse holders are not that bad after cleaning and resoldering the crimps. If your fuse box is marginal you might consider wiring R/R(+) directly to the battery (thru an in line fuse)



    This is a picture of the mounted R/R

    If you have a 6 wire the same applies, you are just going to have to find a low impedance switched power source. You can do a search, but a coil mod relay provides about the best option. Otherwise hook it right to the battery and make sure to not let the GS set for long periods of days
    Here is a simplified diagram showing the connections for a 6 wire R/R. Just omit the Brown wire for a 5 wire R/R. The R/R has doubled up wires for both (+) and (-) so it is actually an 8 wire as shown.
    NOTE IN LEGEND BELOW ASSUME THE MAIN FUSE 30 A IS ONLY 15 Amps as per stock GS. SORRY WAS OVERSIGHT AS NOT MY ARTWORK

    STEP #2.) GOOD R/R GROUNDS Make sure that the R/R(-) is properly grounded to: harness,battery,frame.
    I have described a single point grounding approach that minimizes the amount of current that flows between the battery (-) and the R/R (-) connections. By doing that there is less susceptibility to resistance due to bad connections and corrosion and the R/R should charge the battery more accurately.

    While there a different ways to implement the R/R grounding scheme, the way Suzuki originally implemented the GS electrical charging systems is confused, inconsistent and not ideal in any sense of the word. I provided the theory of why the one below is best, I will not rehash that here. Just follow the directions below:


    Quick Discussion of Single Point Grounds:
    http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...49#post2154549









    ***NOTE:The Main objective in picking the location of the SPG is to minimize the length of wire between the SPG and the R/R(-). Other than that it could be located anywhere including a plastic mount or floating in the air. Battery(-) post as a SPG is generally not recommended as there are plenty of places closer to the R/R(-) (all less than 1' using 14 AWG ground wire).
    By picking one of the R/R mounting bolts as the single point ground point, the R/R(-) wire can be very short, the mounting plate is automatically grounded and all of the return current wires can be tied securely together at a single point. Here are the connections
    • #1: Ground R/R(-) to case and side plate
    • #2: The shortest wire to a frame bolt
    • #3: The shortest wire to the Battery (-)
    • #4: Connects to the (B/W) harness negative ring lugs (typically the one attached at the solenoid mounting bolt). You can leave the other harness ground ring lug (B/W) where it normally is picking up the battery box ground.

    Here is a matching picture on a GS750EX, it will work well for most all E's at least. The layout may be a little different on the G's and L's but the ideas will be the same. Compare grounds to stock in attached pic.



    Here is a GS1100ED done similarly; Here the harness ground lead would not stretch all the way so I just bolted it to the other side of the R/R. R/R should probably be turned the other side around but all wires would fit the same way. All currents from the charging system (leaving the R/R (+) red wire have to return to the R/R(-) black wire. Some of these currents come back from the harness B/W, some from the engine , some from frame return loads. By connecting all of these as close as possible to the R/R (-) you have created a "single point ground" at this point. In this way the current that runs from the Battery (-) to the R/R(-) is only carrying the battery charging current and nothing else. That is the real reason for having a single point ground. There is no current return sharing of the various loads.

    Finally STEP #3.) Perform Stator Paper Checks. The stator pages checks are not perfect, but they are designed to help you through a process of elimination in determining what is wrong with your charging system. The good news about doing steps #1 and #2 above first, is that when the stator pages say to check your connections you know you already have done it. Here is the update.

    Make sure you do these two tests and report the results for diagnosis.
    STEP #2 MEASURE POSITIVE LEAD VOLTAGE DROP
    STEP #3 MEASURE NEGATIVE LEAD VOLTAGE DROP

    Link to Revised PHASE A of Stator Pages:

    ORIGINAL_STATOR_PAGES

    The most important thing to do checks at 5000 RPM which is typical cruising speed. You might find that you will need to clean your fuse box to get the positive side voltage drops below 0.2V at 5000 RPM. In steps #1 above you should of gotten most of the connections between the R/R(+) to battery (+) in good shape except the fuse box.









    Recommendations on products for maintaining your harness.

    http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...ons&highlight=

    And here are some updates with background to the Phase B tests that focus on the stator alone.

    A revised test is at this link; The actual test is on Page 6 of 9. We added the leg to ground AC voltage test as this helps isolate insulation breakdowns to ground using the relatively high 60-80 VAC stator voltage when it is open loop.

    Link to Revised PHASE B of Stator Pages with discussion of testing methods:
    http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/3977...4-pm-649k?da=y


    Some links to prior posts:
    Last edited by posplayr; 05-03-2016 at 12:13 AM.

  2. #2
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    Happy New Year to you too Jim

    Thanks for charging info - I'm an electrical "boob" & I find your explanations quite straight-forward and helpful. I will be going over the entire wire harness on my "Big Red" project soon & your tips and recommendations are very timely.

    Thanks again for your efforts to educate us !

    mike
    '85 GS550L - SOLD
    '85 GS550E - SOLD
    '82 GS650GL - SOLD
    '81 GS750L - SOLD
    '82 GS850GL - trusty steed
    '80 GS1100L - son's project bike
    '82 GS1100G - SOLD
    '81 GS1100E - Big Red (daily rider)

  3. #3
    Turtleface Guest

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    Excellent post! Just purchased a shiny new digital multi-meter, and have the use of a car for a week or so, affording me downtime on the bike to check out the electrical system. Finally time to go through the Stator Papers! I've got Electrosport units (R/R and Stator) to go in as well. I've got a nice lead-free capable soldering station, for when I re-wired my Les Paul. Might as well use it and make sure all my connections are as good as they can get. Any other relay tricks, or eletrical hijinks you can recommend? I've got parts for the coil relay already. Do I remember reading something about a headlight relay or some such?

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    Jim,

    Thanks for the post. As soon as it gets above 40 I need to get out in the shop and go through my system and see what's up.

    cg
    1982 GS650g ,1983 GS750ed "RayGun"
    82 & 83 GS1100g Ohhhh!........Torque sweet Temptress.........always whispering.... a murmuring Siren

  5. #5
    SuzukiGSG Guest

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    Hi Posplayr.

    Yes you understod my question right, and i thank you for your answer, it was very usefull information!!

    Im thinking of bying an brand new wiring harnes and a new r/r, if my stator is ok, and make a complete restoration of the charging system.

    Iwill most certain youse all the knowlegde in this forum to guide me.

    Thanks again and happy new year from Johan in Sweden!

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    Many thanks for posting this Jim. Its definitely a very useful piece of info and a great addition to the tutorials and how toos. It should be read in conjunction with the S-papers by everyone interested in insuring they have a healthy charging system.

    Good work man and keep 'em coming in 2010.

    Cheers,
    Spyug
    "Slowest beasts are always strongest and manage to live the longest"

    "If its no Scottish.....It's crap!"

    1981 Honda CB 650C "Flipper" since that's what's planned for the spring.
    1985 Yamaha FZ 750 "Saturn 5" 'cus it takes off like a rocket! The new ride.

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    Nessism's Avatar
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    Great post Jim! Thanks for putting this together.

    Question for you: as you noted, the factory harness splits the R/R output with one leg feeding the ignition switch and the other going to the battery. It's simpler to run the R/R line directly over to the batter but is it bad to plumb all the R/R output directly into the battery? Will forcing all the current though the battery shorten it's life?

    For my 850 I split the R/R output and did as you detail - feed both the ignition and the battery. For my new 1000, I put all the voltage straight into the battery. I did this in part to keep the system as simple as possible. Last summer I sold someone an R/R a and they immediately contacted me saying it didn't work. I refunded the guys money and asked to have the R/R returned back to me. It took me about 5 min to hook it up and see that it was fine; the guy that bought it was hooking it up into has factory harness that was messed up somewhere. The charging system is very simple if we make direct paths between the components and eliminate the factory harness which may be messed up somewhere (such as with that stupid out and back to the hand control loop).

    What do you think?
    Ed

    To measure is to know.

    Photos of my bikes (past and present)...http://s101.photobucket.com/albums/m50/Nessism1/

    Top Newbie Mistakes thread...http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...d.php?t=171846

    Carb rebuild tutorial...http://zeus.mtsac.edu/~cliff/storage...d_Tutorial.pdf

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    I think Jim's thread should be stickied, right?
    1979 GS1000E (38 Yrs), 1981 GPz550 (Hasn't run in 28 Yrs)
    Departed: 1970 Yamaha R5A, 1971 R5B, 1975 Honda XL250, 1983 Suzuki PE175, 1983 CB1100F, 1983 BMW R100RS, 1992 ST1100

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    posplayr's Avatar
    posplayr is offline Forum LongTimer GSResource Superstar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessism View Post
    Great post Jim! Thanks for putting this together.

    Question for you: as you noted, the factory harness splits the R/R output with one leg feeding the ignition switch and the other going to the battery. It's simpler to run the R/R line directly over to the batter but is it bad to plumb all the R/R output directly into the battery? Will forcing all the current though the battery shorten it's life?

    For my 850 I split the R/R output and did as you detail - feed both the ignition and the battery. For my new 1000, I put all the voltage straight into the battery. I did this in part to keep the system as simple as possible. Last summer I sold someone an R/R a and they immediately contacted me saying it didn't work. I refunded the guys money and asked to have the R/R returned back to me. It took me about 5 min to hook it up and see that it was fine; the guy that bought it was hooking it up into has factory harness that was messed up somewhere. The charging system is very simple if we make direct paths between the components and eliminate the factory harness which may be messed up somewhere (such as with that stupid out and back to the hand control loop).

    What do you think?
    Ed,
    It is desireable to keep things simple,but not "too simple". The application of the single point ground concept for the GS charging is to separate charging currents from all others. This is because we want the Battery voltage to be the same as R/R voltages. The lower the current is between the two, the closer will be the voltages (for a given resistance in the wire contacts). I'm refering to achiveing success in getting low coltages in the stator tests in steps #2 and #3 of Phase A.

    http://www.posplayr.100megsfree3.com..._Phase%20A.pdf

    Given the above, the split in the R/R(+) between ignition switch and the battery is exactly what you want and is the dual of the single point ground also maintining speration of the currents until the single point ground.

    The R/R(+) split should be as close to the R/R as practical. I know it is typically buried in the harness so unless it is giving problems I would not mess with it.

    Will forcing all the current though the battery shorten it's life?
    Well it would but I'm not sure how you could pass all current through the battery and have your bike run. It could go past the battery via the post that doesnt mean it is going through. Again, the only current you want running to or past the battery is the charging current which does go through the battery.

    I'm gonna post a picture of the "direct R/R connection"

    Jim
    Read about Charging Quick Test GS Charging Health GS Stator

    "The smallest giant of mankind, is he who stands on the shoulders of a larger giant who himself stands on the shoulders of yet a larger giant, and therefore sees the most light from GOD." Posplayr 2017 adapted from : Bernard of Chartres


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    posplayr's Avatar
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    5/30/2011: 1st Post is too large; moved it here:

    Hi All ,
    Most know I have posted alot about the analysis of and the do's and dont's for fixing your GS charging systems over the last couple of years. This started when I first bought my 81 GS750EX and started a mission to solve what is a very common issue not just with GS's but with most any permanent magnet (non alternator) charging system.

    While I have strived to keep the discussion as simple as I could, I still made the discussion technical enough so that I could collect other's opinions and observations to modify my analysis as might be required. Here is a simple set of suggestions for modification to a GS charging system that can help save your stator and R/R and prolog their life.

    I got a question from a member here if it was all nessesary? This is a good question as we know many stock GS did coming from the factory working. But as most of us here at GSR know by now, many motorcycle charging systems have fallen into a defective state even with very few miles. So if you actively pursue and achieve a factory fresh condition of your charging system then you can keep it stock. But therein lies the problem;

    "How can you avoid the natural corrosion that occurs in the contacts connectors , crimps and other grounding surfaces?"

    It is going to be alot of work. So in the interest of reducing the sensitivity of the GS charging system to corrosion there are some standard suggestions.

    Make no mistake about this point. Your stator converts the mechanical power of your GS motor into electrical power that is supposed to be regulated by your R/R as the engine RPM's change. The higher the RPM the more power it generates. Because of the delicate balance of charging system design (not much margin in any direction), If that power cant go to all intended loads (the lights, the ignition, and all other loads) the stator will just have to eat the power in the form of converting it back to heat. The stator will get hot and most likely the R/R as well because of bad connections.

    But first so we have a point of reference, here is a simplification of how the currents flow through your charging system. All charging currents come from the R/R (+). While the battery can also supply current, generally that is only when the engine is off or the RPM's are so low that the battery is discharging. In all other cases there should be positive current flow out of the R/R(+) to the system. That means all that current will only flow if it can return back to the R/R(-).

    So generally current splits after leaving the R/R(+) most goes to the ignition switch and feeds the different legs of the fuse box which by one ground return path (frame, harness, or battery terminal) gets back to the R/R (-). From this is is pretty easy to see that that the split in the R/R (+) output is similar to the R/R(-) single point ground concept. We want to separate the currents going to the battery from all of the currents in the system. This is because we are trying to regulate the voltage to the system but more importantly to the battery. The less current that travels between the R/R and the battery the more accurately the voltages will track. So while Suzuki did not implement a single point grounding scheme, the positive side of the circuit does pretty good in immediately separating the positive currents. I will describe the details of a typical single point ground in STEP #2







    Quote Originally Posted by srsupertrap View Post
    I think Jim's thread should be stickied, right?
    If not I stuck it into my siggy

    http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...9&postcount=28

    I did a side by side compare of the OEM R/R to battery wiring and a comparison to the "popular" way people hook up new R/R and go "direct to the battery". I'm making some assumptions here as I think people normally only add one additional inline fuse. So with that here is a side by side compare.

    Bakalorz has also brought up the issue of the high speed current switching that goes on depending upon whether the R/R is sourcing current or not. What that means is when the R/R is not sourcing current it is identical to the condition that I show with engine off so that point is considered in this analysis. The average currents (as measured) remain unchanged as they take the current switching into account.

    Bottom line is to stick to the way Suzuki designed it in the first place. This is something they did get right.






    Last edited by posplayr; 04-19-2014 at 07:14 PM.
    Read about Charging Quick Test GS Charging Health GS Stator

    "The smallest giant of mankind, is he who stands on the shoulders of a larger giant who himself stands on the shoulders of yet a larger giant, and therefore sees the most light from GOD." Posplayr 2017 adapted from : Bernard of Chartres


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