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78 GS1000 low voltage at coils while cranking
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78 GS1000 low voltage at coils while cranking
I,m working on a 1978 GS1000 I removed the separate regulator and separate rectifier, bypassed the stator wire that runs to the left hand switch and installed a newer aftermarket combined unit since it was over charging at approx. 16 vdc and even a little higher and could smell it cooking the battery. The customer kept it full and it test ok with my Yuasa battery tester. It is charging at 13.8-14vdc now with headlight etc. on. The problem I am having is that I have battery voltage 12.6-12.8 at the orange/white ignition coil leads but when cranking it drops to 8.5 to 9.5 vdc. I did a voltage drop test between the O/W wire at the fuse box plug to the coils and loose 1.2-1.6 volts just in the wiring harness which I know is too high therefore makes the bike hard to start. I have cleaned every connection in the ignition system that feeds the coils which I found quite a bit of corrosion in places but still did not increase my voltage when cranking. I have not tried the coil relay mod at this time, I was going to run a fused hot wire directly to the coils from the battery for test purposes at this time and see if that helps any. I have a Dyna S that I was going to install to get rid of the points but I wanted to correct my overcharging and my low coil voltage first as to not damage the Dyna S unit by either high or low voltages. I have not done a starter draw test yet either. I was also just wondering if anyone had any ideas on amperage and voltage that a normal starter draws. And am I heading in the right direction with feeding battery voltage to the coils to eliminate the old wiring system, switches and connections,. Any input or help is appreciated in advance.sigpic 82 gs1100ez 1168 Wiseco,Web .348 Cams,Falicon Sprockets,Star Racing Ported Head,1mm o/s Stainless Valves,APE Springs,Bronze Guides,etc.APE Billet Tensioner,36CV Carbs,Stage 3 Dynojet,Plenum w/K&N filter,Trued,Welded,Balanced,Crank w/Katana rods & Billet left end, FBG backcut trans, VHR HD Clutch basket,APE nut,VHR High volume oil pump gears,1150 Oil cooler,V&H Megaphone header w/Competition baffle,Dyna S,Coils,Wires,etc.Other misc.mods.Tags: None
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Starter motors draw a fair amount of current. Especially on a system / battery as small as a motorcycle.
I can't quote you figures but to give you an idea I currently have a digital voltmeter on my VL1500 and I can see the reading drop to around 8-9v when the motor is cranking over (just before it fires). And that's with a 16 series / sized AGM battery.
In other words, I think what you are seeing is normal.Current:
Z1300A5 Locomotive (swapped my Intruder for it), GS450 Cafe Project (might never finish it....), XT500 Commuter (I know - it's a Yamaha )
Past:
VL1500 Intruder (swapped for Z1300), ZX9R Streetfighter (lets face it - too fast....), 1984 GSX750EF, 1984 GSX1100EF (AKA GS1150)
And a bunch of other crap Yamahas....
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BTW - doing the relay mod to get power to the coils isn't a bad idea. It won't make anything worse.Current:
Z1300A5 Locomotive (swapped my Intruder for it), GS450 Cafe Project (might never finish it....), XT500 Commuter (I know - it's a Yamaha )
Past:
VL1500 Intruder (swapped for Z1300), ZX9R Streetfighter (lets face it - too fast....), 1984 GSX750EF, 1984 GSX1100EF (AKA GS1150)
And a bunch of other crap Yamahas....
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"...I was going to run a fused hot wire directly to the coils from the battery for test purposes at this time "
sure try this, it will give you an idea of what the coil relay mod will do.
But I think this battery is weak from the prior overcharging stuff. Try a booster battery from a non running vehicle to see if that helps.
Lots of stuff contributes to hard starting, misadjusted valves ,dirty carbs , so if you haven't check other stuff be suspicious and don't blame it all on electricals yet.1981 gs650L
"We are all born ignorant, but you have to work hard to stay stupid" Ben Franklin
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Did you include switches, fuse box and grounds in your cleanup and check the charging health per "posplayr's" signature links. The coil relay mod will most definitely help, but your voltage drops are excessive and I suspect a weak charging system.'78 GS1000E, Dyna-S ignition, Dyna Green Coils, K&N pods, Delkevic SS 4-1 exhaust, Dynojet Stage 3 jet kit, Russell SS Brake Lines, Progressive suspension, Compu-Fire series Regulator 55402 and Advmonster cree LED headlight conversion.
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Originally posted by OldVet66 View PostDid you include switches, fuse box and grounds in your cleanup and check the charging health per "posplayr's" signature links. The coil relay mod will most definitely help, but your voltage drops are excessive and I suspect a weak charging system.
It is charging at 13.8-14vdc now with headlight etc. on.
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Originally posted by posplayr View PostYes this is low and symptomatic of worse things to come unless corrected.Originally posted by OldVet66 View PostDid you include switches, fuse box and grounds in your cleanup and check the charging health per "posplayr's" signature links. The coil relay mod will most definitely help, but your voltage drops are excessive and I suspect a weak charging system.Last edited by gs11ezrydr; 04-25-2015, 02:31 AM.sigpic 82 gs1100ez 1168 Wiseco,Web .348 Cams,Falicon Sprockets,Star Racing Ported Head,1mm o/s Stainless Valves,APE Springs,Bronze Guides,etc.APE Billet Tensioner,36CV Carbs,Stage 3 Dynojet,Plenum w/K&N filter,Trued,Welded,Balanced,Crank w/Katana rods & Billet left end, FBG backcut trans, VHR HD Clutch basket,APE nut,VHR High volume oil pump gears,1150 Oil cooler,V&H Megaphone header w/Competition baffle,Dyna S,Coils,Wires,etc.Other misc.mods.
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Ran a new ground from the rubber mounted mounting plate on the L hand side to the battery,Grounded the new Reg/Rect directly to the battery. And yes it charges at 13.8- 14 vdc at idle but seems to drop to 13.6 or so when revved up.(weird )
This is not weird, it is conclusive evidence you have dirty connections. This is a known feature of the charging system. Dirty connections and your voltage drops with RPM. Did you clean out the fuse box? You need to focus on every contact and connection between the R/R and the battery to correct the problem.
"to clean" means to d a chemical clean not "sand paper"........ Sand paper does very little for corrosion in the crimps.
Do you have DeOxit?
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You can discount any appreciable resistance in the wire loom unless it is damaged. Electrical contact points is where you get your high contact resistances as you have seen in the wires that were melted going to the ignition switch. I'll bet that if you feel the main plugs connecting the various parts of the wiring harness together when the bike is running you will find that some are warm or hot. That's your high contact resistance. Add them all up and you have your problem. All the wire strands that you can't see down in the crimp need cleaning or replacing if necessary. Your start up smoking sounds like valve seals. You can tell by downshifting from speed, it will certainly show itself under those conditions and then clear up.Last edited by OldVet66; 04-25-2015, 09:11 AM.'78 GS1000E, Dyna-S ignition, Dyna Green Coils, K&N pods, Delkevic SS 4-1 exhaust, Dynojet Stage 3 jet kit, Russell SS Brake Lines, Progressive suspension, Compu-Fire series Regulator 55402 and Advmonster cree LED headlight conversion.
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Originally posted by gs11ezrydr View PostYes I did clean the ignition switch in he R.H. switch all the connections insid.........'84 GS750EF (Oct 2015 BOM) '79 GS1000N (June 2007 BOM) My Flickr site http://www.flickr.com/photos/soates50/
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Originally posted by Sandy View PostDid you actually disassemble and clean the contacts in the bottom of the main ignition switch, the one the key goes in? There are 2 sets of contacts in there that all the power goes through. If they're dirty as they usually are you'll be chasing electrical gremlins forever until you clean them.
The new problem identified is a decreasing voltage during revving. That is dirty contacts between R/R and Battery. Primary culprits are power and ground paths between R/R and Battery. These are the Fuse box and how your grounds run. The GS Charging health outlines a Single point Grounding scheme that tends to minimize ground sensitivities.
As Old Vet mentioned it is usually not and issue with the wire itself, but rather dirty connections and corrosion inside the crimps. This can only be cleaned chemically. An products like DeOxit beyond cleaning also leave a protective layer to prevent re-oxidations which is what you will get real clean if you chemically clean brass and leave it exposed bare to the elements.
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I might add that none of this information is completely relevant until we know what the voltage is at the battery terminals when cranking. If the voltage at the battery drops to below 11V when cranking then the battery is very suspect. If the voltage at the battery remains around 12V and the voltage at the coils goes to 8-9V then have issues as stated above.
1980 GS1000GT (Daily rider with a 1983 1100G engine)
1998 Honda ST1100 (Daily long distance rider)
1982 GS850GLZ (Daily rider when the weather is crap)
Darn, with so many daily riders it's hard to decide which one to jump on next.
JTGS850GL aka Julius
GS Resource Greetings
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Originally posted by JTGS850GL View PostI might add that none of this information is completely relevant until we know what the voltage is at the battery terminals when cranking. If the voltage at the battery drops to below 11V when cranking then the battery is very suspect. If the voltage at the battery remains around 12V and the voltage at the coils goes to 8-9V then have issues as stated above.
It is charging at 13.8-14vdc now with headlight etc. on. The problem I am having is that I have battery voltage 12.6-12.8 at the orange/white ignition coil leads but when cranking it drops to 8.5 to 9.5 vdc. I did a voltage drop test between the O/W wire at the fuse box plug to the coils and loose 1.2-1.6 volts just in the wiring harness which I know is too high therefore makes the bike hard to start.
The customer kept it full and it test ok with my Yuasa battery tester.
1.) Too high of a voltage drop to O/W
2.) Too high of resistance between R/R and Battery.
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Wasn't sure if the aforementioned voltages were all conducted while cranking. Just wanted clarification that the previously stated battery voltage was indeed while cranking and not static.
1980 GS1000GT (Daily rider with a 1983 1100G engine)
1998 Honda ST1100 (Daily long distance rider)
1982 GS850GLZ (Daily rider when the weather is crap)
Darn, with so many daily riders it's hard to decide which one to jump on next.
JTGS850GL aka Julius
GS Resource Greetings
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Originally posted by posplayr View PostYes this is low and symptomatic of worse things to come unless corrected.Originally posted by posplayr View PostRan a new ground from the rubber mounted mounting plate on the L hand side to the battery,Grounded the new Reg/Rect directly to the battery. And yes it charges at 13.8- 14 vdc at idle but seems to drop to 13.6 or so when revved up.(weird )
This is not weird, it is conclusive evidence you have dirty connections. This is a known feature of the charging system. Dirty connections and your voltage drops with RPM. Did you clean out the fuse box? You need to focus on every contact and connection between the R/R and the battery to correct the problem.
"to clean" means to d a chemical clean not "sand paper"........ Sand paper does very little for corrosion in the crimps.
Do you have DeOxit?Last edited by gs11ezrydr; 04-26-2015, 05:15 AM.sigpic 82 gs1100ez 1168 Wiseco,Web .348 Cams,Falicon Sprockets,Star Racing Ported Head,1mm o/s Stainless Valves,APE Springs,Bronze Guides,etc.APE Billet Tensioner,36CV Carbs,Stage 3 Dynojet,Plenum w/K&N filter,Trued,Welded,Balanced,Crank w/Katana rods & Billet left end, FBG backcut trans, VHR HD Clutch basket,APE nut,VHR High volume oil pump gears,1150 Oil cooler,V&H Megaphone header w/Competition baffle,Dyna S,Coils,Wires,etc.Other misc.mods.
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