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**Agemax** · 04-05-2017, 01:03 AM

Here we go again........

**Blue Falcon** · 04-05-2017, 01:25 AM

Originally posted by Agemax View Post

Here we go again........

LMAO, Ya... I just got done talking with a student in the Mech Eng program here and we had a long discussion about motorcycle oil. I guess last semester one of the senior projects was testing of motorcycle oils, he went as far as to separate them from their base, do sample testing at 300/600/1000/1500/2000/2500/3000 miles. Even he said specific oil for specific purposes, generally speaking it all depended on driving habits, driving purpose and overall mechanical condition of your bike. Any way about it oil change between 1500-3000 miles regardless of which oil you choose, the only real way to tell is to do acid, contamination and specific gravity( dilution )tests on your oil to really be able to tell when to change your oil...but you would need a spigot on the bottom of your oil pan for a good running sample. He did say based on everything that the student had on paper they switched to Maxima Maxum on their projects, cheaper to get by the gallon and overall winner of the testing.

There is no one single oil that lasts 3000 miles, handles heat, quietens the engine, has good acid neutralizers, has high anti-wear additives, doesn't leak, doesn't coagulate, doesn't dilute easily, improves performance and improves gas mileage. Give and Take. Pick your poison for your type of bike, mechanical condition and riding style.

**Nessism** · 04-05-2017, 01:41 AM

Mr. Blue Falcon, I apologize for saying this but you know just enough about oil to be dangerous. Not really dangerous mind you, other than maybe to your engine.

If you want to learn something more about oil please sign up on Bob is the Oil Guy and start reading. That forum will teach you all about Group 5/4/3 oils. Mineral and synthetic. There are tons of oil analysis reports there too so you can see how much wear guys get using different oils.

Without getting into too many specifics I can say that Rotella is the GSR favorite. There is a new formula coming out though and I think the ZDDP is reduced again which is not good.

**Blue Falcon** · 04-05-2017, 02:45 AM

Originally posted by Nessism View Post

Mr. Blue Falcon, I apologize for saying this but you know just enough about oil to be dangerous. Not really dangerous mind you, other than maybe to your engine.

If you want to learn something more about oil please sign up on Bob is the Oil Guy and start reading. That forum will teach you all about Group 5/4/3 oils. Mineral and synthetic. There are tons of oil analysis reports there too so you can see how much wear guys get using different oils.

Without getting into too many specifics I can say that Rotella is the GSR favorite. There is a new formula coming out though and I think the ZDDP is reduced again which is not good.

I understand where you are coming from, been to the BITOG site before, lots of good gouge. I do know a bit about oil, 23699, 9250, 2190... can't believe I still remember the mil-spec numbers... geez. I guess I was too general when I said " pick your oil by mechanical condition of your bike, riding style and type of bike ". I thought most would read it and know the difference and understand what I was saying. I am well versed in the base of oil types, you won't talk over my head on this one. I also hear you on the Rotella thing... sad that govt/agency/"engineering club" standards are preventing us from getting what we want to use in our bikes. If you are looking for ZDDP, Maxima Maxum has twice the zinc and phosphorous as Rotella. Personally, I use M14T. Expensive yes, but I have never had any issues with any vehicle I have owned using it. I may try MM4 once I read more about it and get more results from the engineering lab here on their bikes. Oil analysis is great, but unless you are riding that exact bike, using the exact same gas, riding the exact same way/style in the exact same environment...the numbers don't mean jack. The lab here has a controlled environment, that is why I like the experiment they did here on campus, they separated the oil in the samples and analyzed the samples for true readings at the intervals.

I was in no way saying "go out and buy any oil and you will be fine". No, walmart brand oil will not be good for your bike...regardless of what the packaging says. And by pick your oil I meant pick a good quality oil for your type of bike based on what your bikes needs are and your riding style. For those that don't understand... Not all oils can be used in any type of bike...if this is too complicated you should not even be reading this thread...disregard all you have read and get out of the technical forum area. Take your bike to the shop to have all maintenance done... riding is your thing not fixing.

**Steve** · 04-05-2017, 07:02 AM

Originally posted by Blue Falcon View Post

Ok, I know I found an old thread a couple months ago that had oil info on it, now I can't find it in any search I do.

So when I searched the specifics, this is what I could find all of these seem to have good reputations and good followers, ...

Would you mind citing your sources? I am not challenging your findings or your opinion, I just like to see the studies and the results so I can make my own informed decision.

Regarding oil choice: you say you have no issues with any of your vehicles using one particular oil. I have never heard of that oil, but also wonder how long you have had those vehicles. I use other brands for my vehicles. One brand in my bikes, another in my cages, but only because they require a viscosity that is not available in the brand I use for the bikes. My cages are kept until they fall apart, so they get high miles on them. I have had four go well over 300,000 miles. The two current vehicles have 220,xxx and 185,xxx on them, there have been NO oil-related issues with any of them. In the bike stable, the Wing has over 188,000 on it. Sometimes has a small puff of smoke when I start it. The GSes have varying mileages on them, ranging from 25,xxx to 68,xxx miles. Again, NO oil-related issues. Yeah, there are the occasional leaking gaskets, but that is not the oil's fault.

You say your oil is much better? How will that benefit ME, since I already have NO issues?

I have not mentioned the brands I use and I WILL NOT mention my change intervals, because you would not believe it or like it, but my vehicles speak for themselves.

.

**Blue Falcon** · 04-05-2017, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by Steve View Post

Would you mind citing your sources? I am not challenging your findings or your opinion, I just like to see the studies and the results so I can make my own informed decision.

Regarding oil choice: you say you have no issues with any of your vehicles using one particular oil. I have never heard of that oil, but also wonder how long you have had those vehicles. I use other brands for my vehicles. One brand in my bikes, another in my cages, but only because they require a viscosity that is not available in the brand I use for the bikes. My cages are kept until they fall apart, so they get high miles on them. I have had four go well over 300,000 miles. The two current vehicles have 220,xxx and 185,xxx on them, there have been NO oil-related issues with any of them. In the bike stable, the Wing has over 188,000 on it. Sometimes has a small puff of smoke when I start it. The GSes have varying mileages on them, ranging from 25,xxx to 68,xxx miles. Again, NO oil-related issues. Yeah, there are the occasional leaking gaskets, but that is not the oil's fault.

You say your oil is much better? How will that benefit ME, since I already have NO issues?

I have not mentioned the brands I use and I WILL NOT mention my change intervals, because you would not believe it or like it, but my vehicles speak for themselves.

.

M14T - mobil 1 4T, I have used Mobil oil in my cars since 1991. Never had an engine problem all of them except 1 had over 100k on them when I got rid of them.

I am not promoting any particular brand of oil, I just go curious when talking to the students and the conversation went into "oil" mode.

The student that did the project had a controlled environment in a shop, used 3 new bike, 3 old bike and 2 scooters. They had a dyno and "road" machine set up for them. From the looks of the project there was set mileage, RPM fluctuations, shifting etc.

Manufacturer spec sheets for information

What's in it for you? I dunno really, if your oil is working fine, keep using it. It really does boil down to driving style and bike type with the oil. If you are racing stoplight to stoplight running high RPM's continuously or are you a cruising rider.. your oil type and change frequency will depend on that information. The racer will need need an oil to meet his driving and bike needs. I understand Rotella is the GSR is the widely used oil, Rotella is also having to modify their specs, the oil with the highest ZDDP is Maxima Maxum ( almost twice of any other oil ), not promoting just giving the info, the downfall of this, soaping of the zinc, its the give and take. I have never used it, but apparently the UCF MMAE lab now uses it on their projects (automotive motorsport) they still use AMSoil for their "extreme heat" projects.

How did the student get all his data, it was his senior ME project, he got grants, bikes given to him, all he had to do was buy the oil, gas and filters with the grant money, which also paid for independent secondary labs. 3 control bikes were the new ones, 3 variable bikes were the old. They had 2 new scooters....they were used by the campus Jimmy John's for the experiment. (I think the kid worked at jimmy johns and this gave him something to ride for free).

Thank you for asking. As for me, I am considering switching to Maxima Maxum...I too need more information before the switch.

The gist of the post was, use common sense when picking your motor oil and change frequency. i.e. Castrol makes a good oil, however, it does not go well with some vintage bikes, common sense would be to look up the oil before switching and seeing if it would do well in your bike or if it has caused issues in your bike model. Me, my preference is what is best for the bike, I don't care for racing so I want my oil to benefit the bike.

**Nessism** · 04-05-2017, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by Blue Falcon View Post

Castrol makes a good oil, however, it does not go well with some vintage bikes,

Why do you make broad statements like this? Castrol makes a huge number of different formulations of motor oil, many of which are perfectly fine to run in motorcycles.

**bsharpish** · 04-05-2017, 02:25 PM

Oil - like tires is all VERY subjective

I had a friend (recently deceased) who worked for HRC (among others) and spent a lot of time working in Japan ...... where , at the time, they recommended and used the cheapest 10/40, non synthetic, mineral oils (obviously not for the race bikes).
Ive stuck to his experience and use bike specific mineral oils in all my bikes for , literally, decades.

I did 38000 miles on a little 250 honda single, 42000 miles (including numerous trackdays) on a 98 R1 and so on ... all trouble free, all using mineral oil changed at recommended intervals or less

At the moment my oil of choice is Yamalube - formulated for bikes not diesel cars, dry clutch cars or high HP hot running turbo engines......... But this is just my experience - go with whatever works for you

**Blue Falcon** · 04-05-2017, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by Nessism View Post

Why do you make broad statements like this? Castrol makes a huge number of different formulations of motor oil, many of which are perfectly fine to run in motorcycles.

You are correct, I was too vague almost all synthetic, Castrol 4T, Mobil 1 4T, Red Line motorcycle oil, AMSoil, Maxima Maxum 4, BellRay V-twin, motul (didn't get the specific one), Rotella diesel. Royal Purple was used... My uncle is a distributor and swears by RP... the student test said that RP sucked and was no better than conventional oil.

Results were - castrol didn't live up to claims - clutch noise in 1 older bike, mobil 1 turned dark fastest on wet clutch, red line and amsoil they couldn't tell a difference - both distributed heat the best, maxima maxum most additives - all around really good results * said best bang for the buck, Bel-Ray/Motul and Rotella all had similar results and additives - close enough to not make a difference in the final decisions.

If you are a castrol lover, castrol did not last the full oil change recommendation length, it broke down (was used in a new GSX-R 600 2015 model), don't worry, neither did Mobil 1 or any of the others except, AMSoil, Red Line and Maxum. On the flip side Maxum broke down faster in higher rev motors at consistent high rev riding. For "normal" everyday riding, no need to get all fancy in what motor oil you buy, for touring, higher levels of protectants, for racing it was consistency and heat dissipation.

you ride harder or are in stop and go, change oil more frequently.

On the older bikes, fuel dilution was a factor. None of the 20+ year old bike they used had the oil make it to 3000 miles. End result was switching to full synthetic oil in the older bike caused a couple of leaks, and some of the oil saw a HP increase, NONE saw any significant MPG increase.

In talking with the professor, the whole experiment was kind of a let down for the students, they were expecting a clear cut winner and there was none, there were clear cut "not as advertised" oils. They just went with the one that had the best all around results and the highest protective additives.

When I said it is a give and take, it truly is a give and take, some have what others don't. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

For those of you that like the Honda/Yamaha etc branded oil, I don't know who makes that oil for them, but I hear they are good.

EDIT:
I am not saying "don't use anything but XXXX oil" well..don't use Royal Purple lol, all of the oils did good, they were at the top of the oil food chain. Some at the lower end of the top can perform just as good as the top end, they may require more frequent oil changes or an adjustment in riding style. Also, every oil either quietened noises or brought noises, stopped leaking or started leaking.. really a crap shoot on what it is going to do to your bike. There is a trade off somewhere.

**Nessism** · 04-05-2017, 06:28 PM

I've read enough oil analysis reports on BITOG to learn that most oils are perfectly adequate. Synthetic doesn't break down as fast so you can run it longer, thus offsetting the high cost to some extent. And most people change their oil too soon, me included. A little viscosity breakdown isn't the end of the world, and most oils have plenty of acid buffers to allow extended change intervals.

The continual reduction of ZDDP raises a red flag, but truth be known, high ZDDP oils don't seem to show better results in the oil analysis reports so I'm not sure how critical it really is. I remember seeing pitted transmission gears on some bikes I've worked on, thus suggesting the need for good oil. Never on a GS though.

I've heard good things about Brad Penn oil and Mystic JT-8. Just gotta find a good price...

**John Park** · 04-06-2017, 12:01 PM

In a former trade I was developing a machine which spun at a max of 20,000 rpm continuous. Bearing life started out in minutes. Going to bearings with smaller and more numerous balls made a big difference, but still only an hour or two.

Switching to a light synthetic grease got life up to a day, but the aim was to avoid a circulating oil system. I then tried adding some molybdenum disulphide which got me to most of a week.

The final fix was to run the bearings in on Molyslip grease at 5000 rpm for a few hours and then switch to a mix of molyslip and synthetic which gave the temperature stability and surface improvement combination required. Relubing them at two hundred hour intervals gave a 600 hour life.

I guess the takeaway from this was that the viscosity has a relationship with rpm and the ZDDP or equivalent is what actually does the job after you've gone through the hydraulic film strength. I think the grease was mostly there to move the moly to where it needed to be.

On Blue Falcon's 450, the crank is plain bearing so the game there is hydraulic which IMO would favour synthetics. The only steel on steel boundary layer situations are in the gearbox and camshaft, and my experience with the six speeds is that they work a lot better on synthetics.

On a twin you have almost as many bearings and whirly bits - see counterbalancer - but only half as much motor, so oil drag is proportionally a bigger factor. The rotating bucket and shim valve mechanism seems pretty open ended and overbuilt so I don't think oil type matters all that much.

I run the oil that the motor runs best on. Given that even the synthetics have VI improvement additives that break down in gearboxes, expecting much extension of change intervals isn't realistic. Whether worn out synthetic is better than worn out conventional is a question I'd rather not ask.

Currently running Maxima Pro Plus 10w 40.

**Gorminrider** · 04-06-2017, 01:47 PM

^^^ I'm with you per the gearbox...I have found the Rotellas (synthetic or not) get pretty clunky pretty quick, especially on the gsx400s, however wonderful they are for the engine. I bought some stuff at a yard sale last year 10 gallons,$20..something like "Esso XD HD ? "15-40 for diesels anyways- and it's the best yet per finding neutral at a light and all that.Nice cushiony gear changes ...It's JASO too.
I'm going to be sad when it runs out.

**Blue Falcon** · 04-06-2017, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by Gorminrider View Post

^^^ I'm with you per the gearbox...I have found the Rotellas (synthetic or not) get pretty clunky pretty quick, especially on the gsx400s, however wonderful they are for the engine. I bought some stuff at a yard sale last year 10 gallons,$20..something like "Esso XD HD ? "15-40 for diesels anyways- and it's the best yet per finding neutral at a light and all that.Nice cushiony gear changes ...It's JASO too.
I'm going to be sad when it runs out.

I have a couple of questions, do you think your riding style and bike have anything to do with the Rotella not lasting as long for you? Would a change in driving habits have extended the oil life? Does your environment have anything to do with oil life in your opinion? Does the type/age of your bike have anything to do with oil life, again in your opinion?

In talking with the professor last night, he again said that the oils at the bottom of their list would perform just as well as the ones at the top, there would just be more frequent oil changes. So the trade off's are still there, less expensive = more frequent oil changes.... there in lies the rub. I wouldn't mind using Rotella, I just don't think there is a monetary or equipment advantage to switch. Since Maxum4 prices are through the roof now, I am sticking with M1T4. I get it for $8 a quart locally.

Again, I am not saying any 1 oil is better than another or that you should buy and use "XXX" oil. Just take consideration when choosing an oil and get the one that meets all of you needs.... not wants.. but needs.

**Gorminrider** · 04-09-2017, 06:52 PM

Hi Blue Falcon sorry for delay replying. Wasn't expecting particular "questions"! in an OIL thread!

No. My riding style is not extreme. I change up and down -little braking- on a secondary highway some shuffling through lights in town...I use the clutch. I want the bike to last....The bike doesn't get awfully hot either, mostly being in Coastal Canada where extreme temperatures are rare...a happy place for air cooled bikes you could say...
Who knows -maybe it's a feature of the GSX400 twins I'm riding...but seeing as I have two 400s it's unlikely a problem in the gearbox unless it's in the design.

No, the Rotellas are just not cutting it for me. I also tried the CHEAPEST Can'Tire Diesel 15w40 which lasts in the gearbox about the same as Rotella.- from a "fresh oil change" It definitely gets clunkier after 600 miles.
I only commented in this thread in case someone else suspects the same but keeps reading over and over that Rotella (or just any old 15w-40) is the way to go. It might indeed be excellent in most bikes, just not mine (and yours?)....so try different ones if you feel the same. Personally, I EXPECT my "sweet spot" is not going to be the cheapest diesel oil even though it will do if I don't fuss about vague sense of clunkiness versus "buttery" (so aptly put somewhere here on the forum!)

The JASO-MA standard includes gearboxes in it's purview. So that would seem to be the gold standard. There are other similar specs if not exactly equivalent, like "CI-4 PLUS" etc.

random notes from my hodgepodge of downloaded notes:
"Up to 1998 car oils had been used as the base for many motorcycle oils. As car technology evolved over the years the oils that cars needed changed and additives were added that weren’t good for motorcycle engines (especially motorbike clutches and gearboxes, mainly due to the fact that, unlike most motorcycles, cars use a separate oil for the gearbox)."

"JASO MA – This was the standard for single unit engines where the wet clutch, gearbox and engine used the same oil. JASO-MA oils don’t contain friction modifiers."

Then there's a long list of JASO MA oils but different locales won't have all of them available so no point me quoting a list.

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Oil types and reviews, boiled down to preference of give and take

Oil types and reviews, boiled down to preference of give and take

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