Finding neutral when rolling

[John Park]

(and a careful rebuild as above)...I suppose. If the clutch is dragging, it'll keep tension on the mainshaft and lock the gears tighter together...Symptom would be wheel spinning when up on centre stand....but different oil might fix clutch drag too. New oil certainly helps me....A different oil might help OP
Still, it seems awful sensitive on these...SIX speed bikes are maybe the Particular bears. I don't see nearly the same hang ups on the ol Hondas I've had and have, or the 5 speed 650.

As a matter of interest, what oil are you using? Anything particular?

[gplouff]

My '81 1100E finds neutral quite easily now, and shifts smoothly.

However, I had the same issue as you - took everything apart several times, checked & rechecked the plates & fibers, didn't fix anything.

Finally bought a set of new OEM steels & aftermarket fibers, and replaced that small rubber plug (cushion) on the backside of the basket...

http://www.fastbygast.com/Catagories/Products/description/FiberPlates.htm

http://www.partsoutlaw.com/oemparts/p/suzuki/21215-49000/cushion

Took everything apart & meticulously filed smooth all the notches in the basket (again).
Roughed up the steel faces with coarse grit sand paper.
Soaked the new steels & fibers in fresh oil overnight.
Took apart the release arm assembly in the cover, cleaned & verified everything was moving as it should.
Reassembled the clutch and took great care to make sure all the parts matched the ones seen on the parts fiche.
Verified the backside of the basket was properly engaged with the mating part.
Installed a new OEM clutch cable
New oil

Voila, all good now... did this exact process on my son's '80 1100L that keep the wheel spinning even in neutral with the same results...

This is what I've been looking for. Thanks hikermikem! Good price on the aftermarket fibers too. What do you suppose the cushion does? It stands to reason that I would need a new clutch since my steels are out of spec thin, although a thicker clutch pack seems counterintuitive to this problem. My shifts are a bit stiff, although always positive, and it never jumps out of gear. I haven't checked lately to see if I've got any drag in neutral on the center stand, but I would expect it to have a little, at least when cold, and the bike doesn't lurch forward when I drop it into first. And my clutch seems to work great. With my perfect tune, pulling away from a stop is a thing of beauty. I guess I'm going to order some parts. I'll be sure to tuneup the inside of the clutch basket while I'm in there.

[hillsy]

.....a thicker clutch pack seems counterintuitive to this problem....

If you mean thicker because it's new then it won't have any effect on the drag. The lever pull might be a bit harder due to the springs being tighter, but the drag will not differ as such because this is governed by the amount of plates, not the thickness of them.

[Gorminrider]

As a matter of interest, what oil are you using? Anything particular?

Esso "XD?" 15-40 (name escapes me exactly but it looks to be the typical diesel pick-up truck type) ..at a yard sale...so it's not "particular"! and I don't know who deals it outside of Esso depots but it seems to stay "soft" longer than the Rotella and CanTire types I've tried in the gsx400 beater bike that I ride the most for town trips...(more shifting)

[hikermikem]

This is what I've been looking for. Thanks hikermikem! Good price on the aftermarket fibers too. What do you suppose the cushion does?

Not really sure what the purpose of that little rubber pellet is, maybe keeps the basket from rattling, or limits metal-to-metal contact? IDK, others on here have stated it doesn't make any difference if it's there or not, but it's part of the OEM assembly so I replaced it. The old ones have definitely been worn down so it's doing something...

Also, forgot to mention I replaced all the springs with new OEM ones too - cheap enough for the piece of mind.

And for what it's worth, I use nothing but Rotella 15-40 oil (white jug) bought typically at Wally World on sale.

Not sure if you have a favorite OEM parts supplier but I've found Parts Outlaw to be a very good one both in price & quickness of delivery. If you enter BANG in the coupon code box when checking out you get free or almost free shipping...

http://www.partsoutlaw.com/oemparts/c/suzuki/parts

[John Park]

Esso "XD?" 15-40 (name escapes me exactly but it looks to be the typical diesel pick-up truck type) ..at a yard sale...so it's not "particular"! and I don't know who deals it outside of Esso depots but it seems to stay "soft" longer than the Rotella and CanTire types I've tried in the gsx400 beater bike that I ride the most for town trips...(more shifting)

They don't give an ingredients list with oils, so you have to speculate somewhat. The ingredient that makes it 'soft' is probably the Viscosity Index Improvers, which are long chain molecules designed to tangle and control the flow rate over temperature swings. They are what makes a 10 base oil into an equivalent 40 at high temps. Despite claims of shear stable polymers, motorcycle gearboxes chew them up pretty quickly.

I think that the same tangling properties contribute to clutch drag and interplate suction in wet clutches. You need the viscosity to assure that the oil doesn't all fall out the nearest available orifice instead of distributing itself evenly, and that there is enough resistance to flow to keep oil from centrifuging off the rods faster than it's being replaced. A straight 40 would be fine, but wouldn't flow well enough when cold to keep up with a high revving motor.

Ideally, we would have a 10w40 with no vi improvers. Synthetics attempt to do that, but get quite expensive the closer you get. I think that polyalphaolefin [PAO] base stocks are inherently low viscosity and ester base can be made thicker but is expensive.

I've been through all the guff you get from the twin gearboxes and clutch. I just run ester base synthetic and have no more clutch drag, tricky neutral, and sticky shifting. The difference is immediately obvious and also improves on the next oil change as the remains of the old are dumped. I've gone through this on many twins, and also Hondas. etc. I don't think it lubricates significantly better or makes your motor last longer, but once you've experienced the difference aft of the motor you can make up your mind if it's worth it to you.

I used to be a Motul fan, but the formulas have changed and the production shifted from France to the US and not for the better IMO. Maxima Pro Plus is better and has some of the highest zinc specs in analysis. There are probably other good choices, but this is probably as good as it gets for street use.

[gplouff]

I've always used motorcycle specific oil, probably due to articles I've read in Motorcyclist magazine over the years. I ran golden spectro full synthetic in an FJ 1200 under their recommendation, and it did shift a little better as I recall. I run a semi synthetic in a ZZR1200, and that shifts like a dream. I remember using Bel Ray conventional back in the day. I'm currently running Suzuki 10 40 conventional in my GS 1100, but maybe I should try a synthetic.
Good tip on Parts Outlaw. I've been using Babbitts (suzukipartshouse) and my local dealer. He's sometimes cheaper than Babbitts, certainly faster, and I don't mind throwing him a few bucks occasionally.

[cowboyup3371]

He's sometimes cheaper than Babbitts, certainly faster, and I don't mind throwing him a few bucks occasionally.

FYI, he's no faster than any of the other parts houses as they all have to get the order from the warehouse (3-5 days) than send it to you. You are only saving the up to a week mail time by having it sent to your local dealer compared to Babbitts or Parts Outlaw.

[gplouff]

A week of mail time in the summer when the weather's nice can be pretty painful if you're down for parts. Plus my guy has been selling Suzukis since the seventies. He sold these bikes new, so I don't mind going in and seeing him once in awhile and maybe contributing to his retirement just a little.

[Cipher]

FYI, he's no faster than any of the other parts houses as they all have to get the order from the warehouse (3-5 days) than send it to you. You are only saving the up to a week mail time by having it sent to your local dealer compared to Babbitts or Parts Outlaw.

You are making a hell of an assumption on that. I am sure may a fine big vendor had to have a buffer of parts on hand to comptere.

[Gorminrider]

I've always used motorcycle specific oil....,

I've been through all the guff you get from the twin gearboxes and clutch. I just run ester base synthetic and have no more clutch drag, tricky neutral, and sticky shifting

yes, You guys have almost convinced ME anyways...I really should take a slide-hammer and crack this wallet open someday but it hurts so bad! The Nice400 would be the one for this, butThis bike cost me a $100 so I would cry putting $100 worth of oil in it...mind you + $160 in tires,$30 chain...$40 brake reservoir a new $50 caliper piston...

Despite claims of shear stable polymers, motorcycle gearboxes chew them up pretty quickly.....(sure seems so-I do agree)
I think that the same tangling properties contribute to clutch drag and interplate suction in wet clutches.

THAT's Very interesting!..why I like forums...

[John Park]

yes, You guys have almost convinced ME anyways...I really should take a slide-hammer and crack this wallet open someday but it hurts so bad! The Nice400 would be the one for this, butThis bike cost me a $100 so I would cry putting $100 worth of oil in it...mind you + $160 in tires,$30 chain...$40 brake reservoir a new $50 caliper piston...


THAT's Very interesting!..why I like forums...

If you have some Scottish genetics - like a forebear named Frugal McStingy - you could try running some $$ oil in the good bike for the typical 3000 miles and then drain it out, run it through some paper towel and run it another three in the beater. I've run 6000 miles with synthetic in an 850 and it still looked good enough to run in an old heap car.

I've always kept some drained 'good' oil for use as flushing oil on resurrection projects and such. I know, pouring shiny golden new oil in is way nicer feeling than some rather dark and experienced goop, but gears and bearings can't see, and it's dark in there anyway.

[Steve]

A worn clutch basket will make it difficult to get neutral, where the plates contact the basket if it is notchy they don't slide and release properly

This is what hjfisk is referring to:



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