Dr. Campbell [again, lol]

[fat_sac]

This is my correspondence with the infamous question dodger himself. I got some text book answers out of him about some things, but he never once answered what I asked him. My personal opinion? The dude is no one special. He just googled the phisycs he rattled off to me and has no idea what he is talking about. The funniest thing to me is that he keeps calling big name exhaust companies 'UFO' or universal four into one. I have a 4:2 on my bike, I don't have a 4:1, and he keeps calling an application specific exhaust universal when he's claiming the his pipe is the best on the market no matter what heads, bore/stroke, induction system, carbs or anything else you can do to a motor, his pipe will work and is the best thing in the world for you without any modifications or alterations what so ever to the exhaust. This means he's claiming the same performance gains for a 1400 and a 600. That's not claiming a universal application? Quite rediculous if you ask me.

ME: I'm interested in knowing why this exhaust is so amazing. What can you tell me about the actual performance gains of the pipe over a traditional proven exhaust like the MAC, V&H, Two Bros, D&D or the Yosh system. All of these manufacturers have proven results on their websites as well as a history of race winning production to back up their performance gain claims. All I see in your sales page is a bunch of testimonials from people with no face. Do you have a store front or any pictures of these pipes on actual race bikes that are winning races? What exactly is this pipe and how does it work better than any other?

HIM: Sir,
I can't see your face either.
You must be the 1000th person to ask why not a UFO (Universal Four into One)?
Do you mind if I ask you why a UFO?
My info was up to date, as of a few years ago, so some things may have changed, but here goes anyway.
1) Who designs the Yosh UFO?
2) Who makes it?
3) Was it tested before it went into production?
4) Who designs the Kerker UFO?
5) Who designs the VHR UFO?
Do you know as much about those famous UFOs as you thought? At least you know who designs and tests my X-PIPEtm exhausts: Me. They have to be that much better than the junk UFOs, or no one would give them a second look.
I'm afraid that you won't find many testimonials for the UFOs. For one reason only, they don't work. Even with $400 jet kits. You'll lose 8% at 4,000rpm & gain only 1% at 8,000rpm. What a great deal!
So, how many HP did Yosh promise you?
Thanks, but no thanks. Please buy a UFO.
Monty


ME: 1000 people later and you still have no response? You totally avoided my questions. Can you answer the questions or not? You're supposed to be selling me here. You are the one selling something. Have you no sales pitch? With your attitude, if you were a door-to-door salesman you would have starved to death. Instead of trashing everyone else's product, why can't you PLEASE tell me something good about your exhaust?

HIM: Sir,
I have learned from the 1000 people that once they accept the lies and illusion of a UFO, they can not settle for the truth. Therefore, I do us both a favor by sending you back to the UFO netherworld. If honest testimonials from actual people is less desirable than fantasy magazine lies, then I have nothing to offer you, but truth.
If you really want facts, go to www.x-pipe.com and click on Scavenge, how has it failed. After reading that, and understanding it, if you have a real question, and not some braying, ask. Otherwise, please ignore my work and continue living the lie that is UFO.
Monty

ME: I'm not partial to any particular header setup. My father's race car has open four inch headers on it that dump right under the cab. It runs beautifully and consistant and has for many years. Every Mustang or Camaro we built in high school had cross or x pipes under it. All I'm asking from you right now is some sort of intellegent answer regarding the mysterious aura surounding your pipes that makes everything else obsolete. If you can't explain to me why and how they work, then I'm going to assume that you are some hack that got stuck with a bunch of back stock somewhere. If you are who you say you are, then why not the successful business? Why your garage sale on ebay?

This is a direct copy-paste from your website. It says nothing intellegent. It even refers to a '4 channel surround sound' ??? WTF is that? It also mentions that it is compatible with super chargers. I specifically remember in your site where these pipes are compared to all different kinds of forced air induction saying that I quote you here, "Turbos & centrifugal chargers boost top end, roots and screw chargers boost bottom end, but only Acoustic Super Charger™ technology offers 3 powerbands." You tell me HOW does this particular x-pipe create more torque and/or horsepower than a turbo AND a charger? You tell me HOW does it make such HP gains throughout the power band. There IS a science to this. it has to do with air, fuel, and how much/how fast you can properly stuff those through a motor. You seem to know absolutely nothing about engines in general, let alone this exhaust. Is there anything you can tell me that would make me believe that you're not a hack?

Learn about the new technology that blows away conventional scavenge technology of the '50s.

Least expensive power adder; supercharge, at a scavenge prices.

BIG BLOCK POWER low end.

BIG BLOCK POWER mid range.

Enhanced Power Band.

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Cooler running engine.

Simple design: no moving parts: nothing to burn out, nothing to wear out.

Compatible with super chargers, headers and/or converters.

Outrageous 4 Channel Surround Sound


HIM: 4into1 Urban Legends


Urban Legend #1:
Headers produce scavenge, thereby increasing exhaust airflow, allowing the engine to burn more air/fuel, and make more power.
The Truth of the matter:
Most headers designed to create scavenge actually slow down exhaust airflow, creating back pressure, which is why longer duration exhaust cams can improve the performance of a header equipped engine. There is only one way to make more horsepower; increase dynamic cylinder pressure.
FACT:
Only dynamic cylinder pressure can create horsepower. Scavenge is defined as a suction or a less than atmospheric pressure.
REASON:
There is no way that a suction can create an increase in dynamic cylinder pressure. Maybe headers do work, in some applications, but scavenge alone can not be credited with creating performance improvements.



Urban Legend #2:
Scavenge removes burned exhaust gases from combustion chambers, to allow more fresh air fuel to be burned, making more horse power. More scavenge is better. In fact, mankind has gone to the moon, but mankind has never, ever, created too much scavenge.
The Truth of the matter:
Everything has diminishing returns. More scavenge may not improve power. It seems illogical to state that more vacuum creates more dynamic cylinder pressure.
FACTS:
Scavenge, created and maintained by a resonant 4into1 header, does not remove burned gases from the combustion chamber of an internal combustion engine. As the combustion mixture is burned during the power stroke, the mixture begins its burn from the sparkplug and continues burning toward the descending piston. When the exhaust valve opens in the latter portions of the piston's descent, the gases nearest the valve, and sparkplug, are the first to leave the chamber, under hundreds or even thousands of pounds per square inch pressure. As the light, hot, energetic combustion product gases pass out of the chamber through the exhaust port, chamber pressure drops as potential energy (cylinder pressure) is converted into kinetic energy (exhaust gas velocity). This high velocity exhaust gas column then tends to stay in motion, even after all of the hot, burned, exhaust gases have left the chamber and the chamber pressure drops to zero. Scavenge is then created as the still rapidly exiting exhaust gas column evacuates the chamber by sucking any unburned air/fuel, remaining at the bottom of the chamber, out the exhaust port. No dynamic cylinder pressure increase here.
About 60 degrees before the end of the exhaust stroke, the intake valve opens, exposing the intake tract to the scavenge created vacuum now in the combustion chamber. If the scavenge vacuum is greater than manifold vacuum at that instant (say the throttle is wide open), air/fuel mixture will be sucked out of the intake manifold, through the combustion chamber, past the still open exhaust valve, and out the tail pipe. No dynamic cylinder pressure increase here. In fact, cylinder pressure will be reduced in the very next compression cycle because a portion of the available air/fuel has been lost, never to be burned. Opps, you have just lost dynamic cylinder pressure, the one thing needed to make power.

[fat_sac]

Here's more since I can't do it all in one post.

Urban Legend #3:
Fuel mixture must be made richer in fuel when a scavenge header is installed. The reason is that the header's powerful scavenge allows the engine to breath better, burning more air/fuel, making more horsepower.
The Truth of the matter:
Fuel must be added because the scavenge header is sucking the same amount of fuel, the amount that must now be added, out the tailpipe; the phenomenon is known as over-scavenge.
FACTS:
All intake systems compensate for airflow changes by proportionately adding fuel to air passing through the intake. Carburetors use a simple Ventura that generates a stronger vacuum signal with greater airflow, pulling more fuel through jet circuits, spraying it into the intake air stream. Fuel injection systems use various airflow sensors and air/fuel maps to precisely meter fuel to match air flow. So, even if intake air flow were to increase because of the installation of a scavenge header, the correct amount of fuel would always be added; there would be no need to rejet or remap air/fuel mixtures.
Typically, the more highly tuned the header, and the less the back pressure after the header (i.e. mufflers or catalytic converter restriction), the greater the over scavenge generated and the greater the amount of fuel that must be added to the fuel delivery curve. The additional fuel has to be added because an equal amount of the originally jetted or mapped fuel is lost. How? By over scavenge of the initial air/fuel charge, the richest portion of all air/fuel delivered to the combustion chamber. How do we know this? Because 1) fuel economy (BHPHR/#fuel) does not improve, 2) the mixture leans out only at the scavenge power peak (resonance) rpm, it becomes richer (needs less supplemental fuel) below and above that rpm, & 3) HC (unburned hydrocarbon) emissions go up within such tuned rpm range.
REASON:
Scavenge quickly becomes over scavenge, sucking the richest portion of delivered air/fuel out of the intake manifold and through the combustion chamber during the 60 or so degrees of valve overlap, when both intake and exhaust valves are open at the same time. Ironically, 3, 4 and 5 valve engines are the most likely engines to suffer over scavenge due to the much greater valve curtain from which air/fuel is allowed to escape under minimal vacuum conditions. High flow or ported 2 valve heads suffer the same fate due to increased air flow propensity. So, the better the head, the more likely that scavenge will become over scavenge, and dynamic cylinder pressure will drop.



Urban Legend #4:
4into1 headers flow better than cast iron manifolds.
The Truth of the matter:
A smaller, well designed iron manifold can perform better than most headers.
FACTS:
1. Airflow velocity is generally limited to the speed of sound in that medium. The speed of sound at STP (standard temperature and pressure: sea level) is about 1100 ft/sec. The speed of sound increases to about 1400 ft/sec at about 1100 degrees Fahrenheit.
2. As air flows into a pipe with a different cross sectional area, airflow velocity changes according to that change in area. If the area increases, airflow velocity drops and pressure goes up. If the area decreases, airflow velocity increases and pressure goes down. This is known as Bernoulli's Law.
REASON:
Headers typically flow less than OEM manifolds, because they typically increase the cross sectional area more than manifolds. More area increase means that as the exhaust gases travel through the header, they must expand more, causing the exhaust gas velocity to drop, resulting in back pressure.
A 4into1 also creates additional back pressure at high rpms because the exhaust pulses are slowed down and can't get out of the header before more pulses stack up behind them in the exhaust system.
Say you have a 30mm (1.18" dia.) exhaust valve. Say that the area under that valve, the seat throat region is 80% of the area of the valve head; .7 square inch area. If that is the smallest cross sectional area in the exhaust flow path, it becomes the "choke point", meaning that once the air in that region reaches the speed of sound, it becomes the limit of air flow for the entire system: the "weak link" in the chain of flow elements. Each increase in area brings about a reduction in subsequent flow velocity.
Next, say that the head pipe is 1.5"o.d. & 1.4" i.d. When the air flow passes from .7 square inch area to 1.543 square inch area, the velocity drops from say 1400 ft/sec to 634.8 ft/sec. Likewise, when that air flow then passes into a 3" collector section (7.069 square inch area), airflow drops to 138.57 ft/sec. And finally, when the airflow continues on to a 4" megaphone (12.566 square inch area), airflow makes its final drop to 77.95 ft/sec.
A 4into1 on an engine running 9,000 rpm produces 75 exhaust pulses per second. So, if airflow velocity is reduced to 77.95 ft/sec., each exhaust pulse is compressed making it no longer than 1.04' long. Bernoulli's law predicts that as the air flow is slowed, its pressure increases. This pressure increase is high rpm back pressure!
A 4into1 slows exhaust gas flow and creates back pressure at high rpm, even though it produces overscavenge during the overlap period at the "tuned" rpm.


Urban Legend #5:
Step headers flow more because they increase scavenge.
The Truth of the matter:
Each time that the cross sectional area of the exhaust system increases, exhaust gases are forced to expand to fill that new, large area. When gases expand they cool down, contract and become denser. Expanding/cooling gases slow down as their energy is lost. Each transition in size creates sonic shock waves that travel throughout the system, absorbing even more kinetic energy, slowing the exhaust gas flow further, in jerks.
FACTS:
1. As airflow expands into a greater cross sectional area pipe, it tends to cool down.
2. Exhaust airflow is driven by combustion chamber pressure, released into the exhaust when the exhaust valve opens. The potential energy in the combustion chamber (high pressure) is converted into kinetic energy (velocity, up to the speed of sound), when the exhaust valve is opened.
3. When the cross sectional area is increased in the header, velocity drops, see above.
4. When the exiting, high velocity, gases pull a vacuum, energy is converted from kinetic energy (velocity) into potential energy (scavenge: negative pressure), thereby slowing the exiting exhaust gases by absorbing some of their energy (velocity is reduced).
5. When a gas stream expands into a larger cross section pipe, it cools, due to that expansion.
6. The speed of sound in the exhaust gases is reduced each time that those gases expand and cool. (The velocity of the exhaust gases is limited to the speed of sound. When gases cool, they can not exceed that cooler, slower, speed of sound. They are forced to slow down, preventing exhaust gases from exiting at a higher velocity, creating back pressure.)
REASON:
There is no free lunch, even in a step header. The valve seat I.D. limits the rate of exhaust gas escape, because gas flow rates can not exceed the speed of sound. As exhaust gases enter the head pipe, they are forced to expand, cool, and slow down. With each increase of inside diameter of the exhaust system, the process is repeated. Even though the pipe is larger, the gases can not flowing faster. In fact, the gases slow down with each step. A larger diameter pipe has a greater circumference, and therefore greater surface area to allow exhaust gas heat to escape. The cooler the gas becomes, the more energy it loses from its velocity (thermal energy is lost, allowing the exhaust gases to contract, becoming denser and heavier) and the slower its speed of sound (maximum velocity) in those gases.

[fat_sac]

...And the final bits. He wouldn't reply after the "You're still....questions."

Urban Legend #6:
Long duration exhaust cams allow headers to make the most horsepower because headers flow better than stock cast iron exhaust manifolds.
The Truth of the matter:
Long duration exhaust cams are necessary with scavenge headers because such headers convert exhaust gas velocity into scavenge, slowing the rate at which exhaust gases can escape from the engine. Longer duration exhaust cams give the exhaust stroke more time to blow down exhaust gases. Longer duration exhaust cams give that unmistakable big cam (stumbling) idle, because at idle the intake vacuum is the greatest & scavenge is the weakest, allowing exhaust gases to be sucked into the intake manifold during valve overlap, diluting intake manifold mixture, which in the subsequent intake stroke, fills the combustion chamber with inert exhaust gases that don't burn, causing a misfire (stumble).
FACTS:
1. Exhaust blow down rate is usually limited by exhaust valve seat inside area. Exhaust gases can not exceed their speed of sound: 1400 ft/sec @ 1100 degrees f.
2. Headers can work better with long duration exhaust cams. But, not because headers flow better. Rather, headers flow poorly and need more time to flow the same amount of exhaust.
3. Long duration exhaust cams open exhaust valves earlier, dumping combustion energy into the exhaust system. The extra combustion energy and the extra exhaust valve open time (duration) allows the header to expel more exhaust gases than it otherwise could with the shorter duration stock cam.
4. Opening the exhaust valve earlier shortens the power stroke, drastically reducing thermodynamic efficiency of the engine.
5. Opening the exhaust valve earlier dumps hotter, still burning air/fuel into the exhaust port and header, making them hotter. Hotter exhaust gases shorten the life of exhaust valves, cook headers, and add heat load to the cylinder head.
6. If headers really flowed so well, a shorter duration exhaust cam, one more like stock, would allow a longer, more efficient, power stroke, kind of like a stroker crank vs. a stock crank. The longer stroke usually makes more power.
7. Hp = Work/sec (1 HP = 33,000 ft lbs./minute = 550 ft lbs./ second)
8. Work = Force X Distance (Work = (area of bore X combustion chamber pressure) X (power stroke length))
9. If all else were equal, reducing the power stroke will reduce Work done by each cylinder and total engine HP.
10. In a four stroke engine, the crankshaft rotates 720 degrees in order to complete all four of its strokes (4 X 180 degrees).
11. If one degree of duration is added to the exhaust stroke, one degree must be subtracted from one of the other three strokes (intake, compression, or power).
REASON:
Since the exhaust stroke generally can not be expanded into the intake stroke, due to the increased probability of valve to valve and valve to piston intersection during the valve overlap period, degrees are usually subtracted from the power stroke. If a long duration exhaust cam is, say, 20 degrees longer than stock, usually it also makes the power stroke become 20 degrees shorter than stock.
For example, a Ford 302 has a 3" stroke. If the stock exhaust cam forces the valve open at 70 degrees BBDC (before bottom dead center), the power stroke is 2.013". If the long duration exhaust cam opens the valve only 20 degrees earlier (in order to add 20 degrees of exhaust duration) the power stroke is reduced to 1.5". The long duration exhaust cam, with just 20 degrees more duration, has reduced the power stroke by .513"! That is the opposite effect of a 1/2" stroker kit!
People spend thousands to put even a 1/4" stroker crank in their engine, to make more power. You've just done the opposite. You've just cut your stroke by 25%. All else being equal, you can expect to lose about 25% of your engine's thermal efficiency (its ability to convert heat (thermal energy) into horsepower (mechanical energy)).
If a header really did flow better, wouldn't a person be smarter to leave the power stroke duration stock?
The reality is, a header does not flow very well at all, because it expands, cools and therefore slows the exiting gases. The long duration exhaust cam is really just a marketing band aid for the very poor flowing 4into1.



Enough with the Urban Legends. You are set free. Now, you know he truth of the matter






ME: Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I didn't see any of this information on your website, and now I have plenty of ammunition to make a very educated purchase. Your website comes across as someone advertising the cure to cancer with no proof. I know not everyone understands physics like explained above and the general public would suffer from too much information if this were presented to them. However, this is exactly the kind of rebutle I was looking for. One more question before I leave you alone. How does your exhaust pipe put all these factors to work for itself? What makes it so much better in comparison? All you've done so far is tell me what is wrong with conventional design. Now I want to know how your pipe is able to lay to waste all these other designs. Is there a constant back pressure in your pipe that is tuned for optimal performance from stock configurations? How does your pipe work with aftermarket cams, or a turbo/charger system. If it confines the gasses throughout the pipe to maintain the gas's inertia then what happens when you add more flow? Is there a point where big giant ports and huge flow can hinder the performance of this pipe? There's no one size fits all exhaust. You are leading me to believe that no matter what engine/head/carb configuration I have, your pipe is the all mighty answer with no competition.

Marshall Bishop




HIM: Mr. Bishop,

I am sorry that you were taken advantage of by a UFO maker. But, please do not take your anger out on me.

I am also sorry that I can not further explain my humble design since every UFO maker on the planet now pretends to have invented my humble design. Of course their magazine allies are all too eager to help spread untruth.

I am also sorry that you have been fooled by the endless, mindless, magazine articles in which up is down and right is left. Scavenge is power. Bigger is better. A purported brake dyno test done by an un-named journalist is printed as truth and presumed to be a predictor of acceleration. When in fact that journalist was the kid in high school who was only good in English; the one everyone beat up at recess in grade school. Now, you listen to him about engines? A brake dyno can not predict acceleration, it can only predict an engine's ability to pull a load, similar to pulling a trailer up a hill. Bigger flows less than smaller. George Kerker committed suicide in the '70s because a magazine cut his products down. The same magazine journalists bought the Kerker name from the grieving widow, for a song. It has been golden ever since.

Please consider facts before you launch your hatred upon another.

Monty





ME: You're still dodging my questions.

[U.P.dragracer]

I sence insecurities and distrust . LOL!!!!!

[Mysuzyq]

Unbelieveable...his POS pipe is up to $300 on ebay....painted!

Tony.

[fat_sac]

I just don't get it. :shock:

[KEITH KRAUSE]

This guy is a low life. All you can do is pass on the word and maybe one less person will get screwed by him.
I'd love to meet him and pop him one. I asked him a question a long time ago at Ebay and he got real defensive and starts rattling off his BS...same as now.
Like I say, pass it on.

[humhead]

Keith, unless you coated your fist with some anti-psychotic medication, it wouldn't do much good This guy is a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic lunch. I still get a chuckle out of remebering my exchanges with him. Warning others to stay away from this low-rent ivory tower syndrome looney is a very good idea.

Terry

[hungryman]

If it worked as he says, you would see it on the track. That to me is the bottom line. It's bullschitt.

[yogib]

FUNNY,with all the BRAINS on this site I would think some of you would have an open mind.I am new to bikes but I have no trouble wrenching on them and am always open to knowledge.I have this pipe on my bike now and it OUT performs the V&H 4to1 that was on it before.I think it's limits would be a 1300cc+ engine for the strip,then a bigger tube head pipe would be in order.I am not an engineer or educated for that matter but I do understand mechanics.I have worked on a lot of types of machines including jet engines and propellers.Rip away at me I don't really care it seems a lot of what goes on here is for YOUR entertainment!I would expect a little more out of Keith than popping him ONE,thing is Keith you shouldn't under estimate anyone,just because the guy is a DR. doesn't mean he couldn't kick YOUR a$$.That's just a BULLY comment,to tell you the truth I LOVE bullies,thing is they never did learn how to fight.They throw punches from yesterday,very easy to to DUCK!It's been fun.Don

[KEITH KRAUSE]

FUNNY,with all the BRAINS on this site I would think some of you would have an open mind.I am new to bikes but I have no trouble wrenching on them and am always open to knowledge.I have this pipe on my bike now and it OUT performs the V&H 4to1 that was on it before.I think it's limits would be a 1300cc+ engine for the strip,then a bigger tube head pipe would be in order.I am not an engineer or educated for that matter but I do understand mechanics.I have worked on a lot of types of machines including jet engines and propellers.Rip away at me I don't really care it seems a lot of what goes on here is for YOUR entertainment!I would expect a little more out of Keith than popping him ONE,thing is Keith you shouldn't under estimate anyone,just because the guy is a DR. doesn't mean he couldn't kick YOUR a$$.That's just a BULLY comment,to tell you the truth I LOVE bullies,thing is they never did learn how to fight.They throw punches from yesterday,very easy to to DUCK!It's been fun.Don

No, I'm not a bully at all. That "pop him one" comment is just that, a comment. I'm well aware that there's lots of people in this world who can kick my ass and vice-versa. "DR" has nothing to do with how I size someone up in type. I can imagine many of his unfortunate customers would like to say or do the same thing though.
I have an open mind but this guy tried hammering on me when I asked him a simple question of how he claims to increase power WITHOUT RE-JETTING. That's BS and you should know that. Even after he got the last word in, he still messaged me with an insult that was surprising, even coming from him.
Glad you like your pipe. Happy Sunday morning to you to.

[yogib]

This pipe did respond very well to jetting and I MEAN very well.The pull on top was OK with the stock setup but when I went with the jetted bank it was unreal.Sorry Keith I don't respond well to violence I have had too much experience with it.I know this guy comes off as a jackoff but the pipe works well for me and it is different than what you see on the street.Not only in looks but sound also.Enjoy the rest of the weekend!Don

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Ah! You DID have to re-jet. That's how he and I got into it about 6 months ago. Not his pipe, just his claim of no re-jetting.
This guy did nothing for me to promote his product. I couldn't believe it when I received another insulting e-mail from him a couple days after I thought he got in the last word. I don't know that much about his pipe but he was the real problem. I swear I never insulted him and I'm sure my jetting questions just made him defensive. I was actually a little sedate with my words because I didn't want to say something that Ebay could look at and say is too offensive.
I've never sent a message through Ebay to discuss anything technical, but I had to when I saw his comment about no re-jetting needed. I take most things about bikes seriously so I questioned him. Near the end of his original message he did say that the main jet MAY need to be increased a size. But that's BS and I told him so. I also told him there are three major jetting circuits to re-jet on carbs, not just a main. All have to be re-jetted if this pipe really increases power as much as he claims. So he really got into preaching to me and if he knew me he'd realize how stupid he sounded on more than one point.

[Pharkmeh]

wtf?

Sorry Keith I don't respond well to violence I have had too much experience with it.....Enjoy the rest of the weekend!Don

wtf???

do I understand this right...

the boyz were havin sumthin to say about some Dr Toolheads pipes...

and by boyz I mean some respected site members...

and by Dr Toolhead I mean someone not in your immediate family/bed/sisters pants...

so wtf

some insignificant reference to a pop in the chops and u have to chuck a wobbly shootin ur mouth off flaming good people cause you got your feelins hurt...

woot chit... absolute chit !!!

I'd tell ya to grow up but if you havent managed it by 40 ffs theres no hope for ya...

I for one am enormously grateful for the tech support here, given freely 24/7 and even those opinions that differ are valuable....

try and keep your personal flaming however misguided to the "Off topic discussion area" or I'll take ya behind the "Ladies Forum" and thump ya proper:twisted:


and so will meh girlfriend ...
:arrow: :arrow: :arrow: http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...ad.php?t=92608

[J_C]

Both Keith and Don have been very helpful to me, and I know they are both good guys We'll just say it was a miscommunication caused by lack of clarity on the internet and call it a done deal