First start not good

[pete]

I fired my '82 450E up for the first time since the engine rebuild today, and it was quite a disappointment.

I haven't got the airbox in as it's a bit crappy and I have K&N pods awaiting, so I clamped some rag over the carb intakes for the moment to give it some filtering and pressure. I thought it was sucking too much air initially, so I ended up with a rag folded four times with some duct tape doing some more restriction too.



It does run, but it runs at about idle speed with the idle screw wound all the way out.



After attempting to get it running properly I gave it away and then discovered the plugs are black:



The other thing about this is that my ignitor is buggered so I'm using a prototype one I've done up with other guys' assistance using GM style HEI ignition modules.

Anyway, carbs have been totally cleaned (very well I might add) and are stock jets etc.

Valves have just been adjusted.

Symptoms:

- Idles sort of ok but any load like a timing light causes it to stall.
- Will not rev at all, twisting the throttle makes the barest of difference.
- Will not idle for long and stalls.
- If I leave the fuel tap for the temporary fuel tank turned on, it spews fuel all over the shop.
- It occassionally backfires out the carb intakes and I can see puffs of smoke when this happens.
- Plugs are black.

So, all the above tells me it's running rich, whereas with the lack of an airbox lead me to think it should really be running lean. Obviously I'm wrong on that account!

So, my question really is where should I be starting? I know these sorts of questions have been raised numerous times but there are so many different things I can think of that I can't even begin to think where to look first.

One thing I tried was turning the mixture screws in, which didn't seem to make any difference.

[pete]

I probably should clarify that when fuel was spewing all over the shop, it was coming from the T piece between the carbs. It wasn't coming from the overflows, so I think it could just be that when the float shuts the flow off, it's overcoming the ability of the 30 year old T piece to seal.

[JEEPRUSTY]

I had this happen to me. it was just old dead o-rings. I got a new tube as I did not know which size o-ring to buy. Problem went away after that.
Mine was an annoying trickle though.

[pete]

Cheers Jeep!

No O rings in there on mine, just the T piece, and I'll definitely be replacing that now.

I did neglect to mention that the carbs have also had the Robert Barr treatment along with the clean too...

[john82q]

Pete,

wondering about the rag you used over the carbys, it looks kindof dense.
in my book one layer of the missus's stockings would have been better.
(thinking too much restriction = higher in carb vacuum ==rich)

but hey least it started !

cheers John

[pete]

I won't be surprised in the slightest if you're right there John, because in hindsight I reckon it ran worse with the four layers plus tape, although it was hard to tell.

I'm not game to try it with nothing there in case I suck something in, but I'll see if I can locate something a little more open weave. Stockings would be good, although i may have some cheesecloth in the garage actually.

And yeah, hearing it run was awesome, and mechanically the engine sounds good to my ears, no strange noises at all in that regard.

[JEEPRUSTY]

I won't be surprised in the slightest if you're right there John, because in hindsight I reckon it ran worse with the four layers plus tape, although it was hard to tell.

I'm not game to try it with nothing there in case I suck something in, but I'll see if I can locate something a little more open weave. Stockings would be good, although i may have some cheesecloth in the garage actually.

And yeah, hearing it run was awesome, and mechanically the engine sounds good to my ears, no strange noises at all in that regard.

Oh man this would be cool if you went to a Cloth Merchant's shop and started discussing warp and weave and such.

[tkent02]

The first time it is run is important it be running right so you can run the Hell out of it. All the idling and playing with cloth intakes is wasting your opportunity for obtaining a good ring seal. Read this, put the airbox back on and then ride it.

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

Once it's broken in correctly you can play with jets and pods all you want.

[JEEPRUSTY]

That t is like 30 bucks.
It has some weird rubber tip that go into the carb bodies.
Did you soak in the cleaner Pete?

I can imagine you horror if you suck the cloth into the engine.

Which reminds me of a Car and Driver stroy of long ago.
It was about a poor small bird that got sucked into a large engines open velocity stack. It was bad for the bird.

[pete]

The first time it is run is important it be running right so you can run the Hell out of it. All the idling and playing with cloth intakes is wasting your opportunity for obtaining a good ring seal. Read this, put the airbox back on and then ride it.

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

Once it's broken in correctly you can play with jets and pods all you want.

100% agreed. I ran it as little as I could while trying to find why it was so rich so I could run it properly for the first 15 minutes as per my first start thread:

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=170751&highlight=preparing+start

What you're saying is exactly the reason I was so concerned and I want to get it sorted before trying again.

As for the airbox, I don't think it's going to be restrictive enough as I'm pretty sure the seal etc. has perished, however I can certainly pull it out and check. The intake boots for it are covered in some greasy sticky gunk also that the carb clean mostly got off the carbs.

I've read through the link you provided after Rapidray pointed me in that direction and that's what I want to do.

All I'm trying to achieve this time around is the 15 minute run at 2500 rev's or thereabouts so I know the engine is good and I can finish the build.

Is that making sense? I definitely do want to give the engine the best possibility of having those rings bedded in well.

I'll have to look at the airbox again I think...

[pete]

That t is like 30 bucks.
It has some weird rubber tip that go into the carb bodies.
Did you soak in the cleaner Pete?

I can imagine you horror if you suck the cloth into the engine.

Which reminds me of a Car and Driver stroy of long ago.
It was about a poor small bird that got sucked into a large engines open velocity stack. It was bad for the bird.

You lost me on the rubber tip bit, but yes, the carbs have absolutely 100% been cleaned right, have read too many horror stories on here to take shortcuts with that

I boiled them in good carb cleaner and the insides were immaculate and every orifice very much open.

As for the cloth... that's why those hose clamps are there tightened right down.

[pete]

So, as a good next step here's what I'm thinking.

Do the rest of the cosmetic work, get the stock airbox on and the exhaust made up, but with a muffler to replicate the stock restriction. Also get tyres and suspension sorted.

Then, after all that, do the next attempt at a 15 minute run just before taking it for the roadworthy inspection.

My concerns at the moment are around if Tranzac need to start the bike with the new exhaust on to test it, and the idling during the roadworthy inspections when I go to register it.

The other option of course is to get the airbox in now and run it now for 15 minutes, then try not to start it again until I'm forced to by the roadworthy inspection.

Anyone care to comment?

[Woodsy]

They have no reason to start the bike, if its just a blue slip all they will do is check the tyres, oil leaks, lights, and an id check. Thats NSW anyway.

Picky blokes might start it, but i doubt it.

[tkent02]

Just go blast around for an hour. Don't they have a temporary permit or something? Is there a race track you can play on? A dyno anywhere around there? Running it gently early on is bad.

[pete]

They have no reason to start the bike, if its just a blue slip all they will do is check the tyres, oil leaks, lights, and an id check. Thats NSW anyway.

Picky blokes might start it, but i doubt it.

One of the tests for a safety certificate I believe is for blowing smoke... they don't have to run it long for that though!

Just go blast around for an hour. Don't they have a temporary permit or something? Is there a race track you can play on? A dyno anywhere around there? Running it gently early on is bad.

The only permits we have are for riding directly to and from the inspections, no detours allowed, and the closest race track's an hour away and I have no trailer... a dyno might be a different story...