Rectifier/Regulator replacement list

[posplayr]

Like I said before, the EE who designed the RRs took into account the stator and it's unique characteristics.The stator impedance interacts with the Q of the circuit represented by resistance, reactance, phase, voltage, current and frequency. One thing to consider is the Honda stators are electrically very similar to the Suzuki stators. Their regulators are similar as well with the significant difference being the regulator reference and an obviously larger heatsink area. Other than that they are quite compatible.

I think that this comment is trying to suggest that the Honda regulator is a better match for the OEM stator than the FH012AA. It is using my comment for justification.

The point of my comments was that stators for "crow bar" control systems have to maintain a certain about of resistance in the wire. That means thinner wire and more windings. This is necessary because when the crow bar shorts out the stator coils, the stator and the R/R can fry unless there is sufficent resistance in the stator to limit the current.

The specific point being brought out is to not drop the stator impedance too much as if you do and short it's leads then you can fry it. It has little to nothing to do with a matching of the regulator to the stator. A R/R with crow bar control will short the stator whether it is OEM,HONDA or FH012AA.

Most all of the discussion has centered on a R/R that is efficient and can produce regulation in the face of minimum stator voltages. No where has the issue of MATCHING of R/R characteristics to Stator characteristics been discussed or described other than in duaneage prior post and baseless suggestion.

So in Jim's court I find the following statement as a not so subtle form of "fear mongering" to promote running to Honda regulators so that the last 5% of market share can be grabbed. In the interest of GS science I must protest.

the EE who designed the RRs took into account the stator and it's unique characteristics.The stator impedance interacts with the Q of the circuit represented by resistance, reactance, phase, voltage, current and frequency.

There is nothing mis matched about a FH012AA on a GS stator as far as I can tell.


duaneage

I really was hoping you would not post such comments. Maybe you just don't know any better.

Pos

[duaneage]

I had a talk with one of the experienced power guys about this topic and his general comment was tread lightly. The crow bar regulation as ugly as it is works because there is substantial source resistance in the stator. Basically the stator resistance limits the current when you short it. If you were to reduce that resistance by 1/2 say, you would increase the current by x2 when crow barring and either the stator or the R/R may not be able to take it. Other than that there are too many factors to generalize in this forum.

Without changing the stator, there is an extra 34 watts avaliable to the load if required so that is about a 20% increase in avaliable output power.

Pos

Like I said before, the EE who designed the RRs took into account the stator and it's unique characteristics.The stator impedance interacts with the Q of the circuit represented by resistance, reactance, phase, voltage, current and frequency. One thing to consider is the Honda stators are electrically very similar to the Suzuki stators. Their regulators are similar as well with the significant difference being the regulator reference and an obviously larger heatsink area. Other than that they are quite compatible.

[posplayr]

Rusty

That information is what I have been looking for.
all that I have read, the stock stator is around 275-290 watts output.

out of your FET regulator, you have 14.0v@ 10 amps=140 watts which would make sense, because of the 42%-55% efficiency in the shunt style R/R. the output current is made worse (the greater the difference, the lower the efficiency) because of the very high input to low output voltage.

Actually I measured about 12.5 maximum, so the power delivered to the load is 14.5V@12.5 amps (at 4000 RPM) = 181 watts.

The loss of the regulator can be approximated by knowing the stator current and the bridges voltage losses.

The voltage drops are assumed to be relatively constant during a 1/2 cycle of the power signal so the R/R power loss is 3 times the average power loss for both upper and lower diode legs.

P loss = 3 * (2/pi) * I_stator_peak( 50% * VD_upper + 50%* VD_lower)

(loss of the R/R)

The (2/pi) I_stator_peak gives the average current during a 1/2 cycle of the stator current wave form (sine wave)

The diodes are only conducting 1/2 the time so there is an average power calculation

The leading 3 is to account for the three phases.

So for the Honda or OEM we should get a total power dissipation of:

P_loss_honda = 3*(2/pi)*15*(1.7/2+1.7/2) = 48.7 watts
P_loss_FH012 = 3*(2/pi)*15*(1/2 + 0/2) = 14.3 watts

changing the stator to a larger diameter wire with less turns, may help increase the efficiency of a "crow bar" style R/R, by bringing the input voltage closer to the output voltage. combining a "rewound" stator, with this FET regulator, may show improvement in the available current output.
but it will "probably" sacrifice low speed charging system output. how much it will sacrifice is unknown at this time.

since most of the running of our bikes is in the 4-6,000 range, it just might make a nice trade off.

your thoughts Pos, or am I off base here? (go easy, I'm just a parts guy)

***edit***140 watts ain't jack... and add to it a R/R that is less efficient? whoooweeee!

I had a talk with one of the experienced power guys about this topic and his general comment was tread lightly. The crow bar regulation as ugly as it is works because there is substantial source resistance in the stator. Basically the stator resistance limits the current when you short it. If you were to reduce that resistance by 1/2 say, you would increase the current by x2 when crow barring and either the stator or the R/R may not be able to take it. Other than that there are too many factors to generalize in this forum.

Without changing the stator, there is an extra 34 watts avaliable to the load if required so that is about a 20% increase in avaliable output power.

Pos

[duaneage]

http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/circuits/scr_overvoltage_crowbar/scr_over_voltage_crowbar.php

I thought this would come in handy for those that are wondering what a crowbar circuit looks like. Usually they are used for overvoltage protection, the same principle can be applied to regulation if the sense voltage is applied to the scr trigger input and clamped by external transistors.

[rustybronco]

It is interesting that the R/R produces 10 amps total. That has been my guess for a long time .
Pos

That information is what I have been looking for.

all that I have read, the stock stator is around 275-290 watts output.

out of your FET regulator, you have 14.0v@ 10 amps=140 watts which would make sense, because of the 42%-55% efficiency in the shunt style R/R. the output current is made worse (the greater the difference, the lower the efficiency) because of the very high input to low output voltage.

changing the stator to a larger diameter wire with less turns, may help increase the efficiency of a "crow bar" style R/R, by bringing the input voltage closer to the output voltage. combining a "rewound" stator, with this FET regulator, may show improvement in the available current output.
but it will "probably" sacrifice low speed charging system output. how much it will sacrifice is unknown at this time.

since most of the running of our bikes is in the 4-6,000 range, it just might make a nice trade off.

your thoughts Pos, or am I off base here? (go easy, I'm just a parts guy)

***edit***removed incorrect information. see this post... http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...0&postcount=85

Actually I measured about 12.5 maximum, so the power delivered to the load is 14.5V@12.5 amps (at 4000 RPM) = 181 watts.

So for the Honda or OEM we should get a total power dissipation of:

P_loss_honda = 3*(2/pi)*15*(1.7/2+1.7/2) = 48.7 watts
P_loss_FH012 = 3*(2/pi)*15*(1/2 + 0/2) = 14.3 watts

[posplayr]

Current Plots

Here are some selected shots of the FH012AA only. This graph is at idle with showing the blue AC current coming from one of the stator legs. The Yellow is the voltage relative to ground of the stator leg. You can see here something just under 15V and accounting for 1 volt drop from the diodes the output voltage was about 13.8V.




Here is the same thing (idling) but looking at the total current coming from the R/R. You get about 10Amps, the RR is not regulating and so you only see the harmonics associated with a 3 phase full wave rectifier. The label says 2 ADC but that is wrong. The scale is 5 amps per major division.



The charging current moving from the R/R to the battery is basically the same but can be adjusted up and down (positive and negative) by the idle speed; it is near zero and I could only get it up to 2 amps at 3K RPM.

Here is where it gets ugly and you see the effect of the "crow bar" control at 3K RPM. They basically look the same except there is about 10 of DC current in the R/R current. The charging current is 2 amps in this graph as measured by my averaging scope.





Not sure this ads alot but it confirms what we already knew. It is interesting that the R/R produces 10 amps total. That has been my guess for a long time .

Pos

[posplayr]

OK to WRAP THIS UP

I got my current amp to work again. Watta you know the 9 volt battery died after just 10 years.

Here is the test setup.



Looking down into the battery compartment; shows the current clamp, and the timing light with RPM readout to control the charging. I moved the current clamp between total current supplied by the RR (about 10-12 Amps) and the battery charging current (smalll current -1 to +2 amps)



The Honda and the OEM regulator modified with fresh crimp connector and soldered to prevent corrosion.




The installed FH0112AA; mounted upside down. I still need to RTV those connectors.

continued.....

[posplayr]

Rusty

Well it might not be obvious, but all things being equal if there is less power drop in the R/R then there is more available to go to the system or to charge the battery. But therein lies the dilemma, you would not have the same load so everything will not be equal.

This compounded by the fact the R/R's doesn't worry about controlling power to the load but rather limiting the voltage at the battery. So if functioning properly and in the voltage range (above drop out), the same battery voltages should be attained and so the same current to the loads. But the one with the larger diode drop will still get hotter. This is one of those times you just have to conclude that there is more charging capacity available because you know the voltage drops are smaller.


Speaking of diode drops. I went back and looked at the data to see if I could figure out the waveforms. Basically when the stator voltage is high, the difference between the stator and the battery is the forward biased upper leg of the diode bridge. When the stator voltage swings down you are looking at the negative of the lower leg forward bias voltage.


I put the attached table together that shows that there is only about 1 volt drop in the upper leg and essentially none in the lower FET side of the FH012AA R/R.


The Honda is more typically 1.7V in both upper and lower legs. So at least in theory that would account for 3.4V of drop (v.s. 1V) in power dissipation which is three times the FH012AA.

While teh OEM seems to have the same type of diode bridge, why the OEM gets so much hotter than the Honda is a mystery although we suspect a case of 'crappy design". I guess I should measure drops at higher load again.


OK where is that scope again.....


Basically the table proves that we are comparing full wave diode bridge rectifier in the Honda and the OEM R/Rs' and a "low voltage drop upper diode with power MOSFET lower diode" bridge.

Pos

Thanks for your support, Pos.

The vast majority of my customers are people without soldering or wiring skills who just want their bike fixed. Many don't want to wait for an auction to end and then wait longer for a RR to show up they then have to modify themselves. Add to that the heatshrink, connectors, wire, etc and by the time they are done they spent almost 40 dollars already.

I ship same day or next and back up the RRs with a swap out if the rider thinks it doesn't work. I worked with three people last year to help them determine what else was causing problems with their bike by sending them a second RR. In each time the Honda was not the problem. Try that with an ebayer.

I'm happy to provide this quick RR service as long as I can still get stock and people want them. Maybe some day all GS bikes will be updated then I can retire.

Do you mean not everyone has a Fluke 97 digital portable O-scope in their garage? I consider it the ultimate tool for electrical.

I applaud you for the service you provide Duane, for all the reasons you just stated. People that can't troubleshoot automatically think R/R failure. That's why we get so many of the same questions over and over again. For quite a while I got tired of all the redundant questions. I think I may be getting over that and might start posting more answers in the tech section.

[posplayr]

duaneage

Do you mean not everyone has a Fluke 97 digital portable O-scope in their garage? I consider it the ultimate tool for electrical.

I was referring to this stuff which is avaliable for pretty cheap on ebay now, but I bought it all new back in 1998 for about $4K. I have the Fluke 97 as well. That was about $120 I think.

Scope

http://www.trs-rentelco.com/Model/TEK_THS730A.aspx

Software

http://www.testmart.com/search/compare.cfm/SOFWAR/TEK/WSTRO/1.html?ad_=3697

Current Clamp

http://www.testpath.com/Items/ACDC-Clamp-on-Current-Probe-for-DMMs-and-Oscilloscopes-100kHz-100A-117-283.htm

[duaneage]

duaneage: Thanks for providing such a reliable and cost effective solution (Honda Regs). For probably 90% of the GS'ers here the Honda reg is the way to go. Some people are always trying to do better and so now we have the SH012AA .

Pos

Thanks for your support, Pos.

The vast majority of my customers are people without soldering or wiring skills who just want their bike fixed. Many don't want to wait for an auction to end and then wait longer for a RR to show up they then have to modify themselves. Add to that the heatshrink, connectors, wire, etc and by the time they are done they spent almost 40 dollars already.

I ship same day or next and back up the RRs with a swap out if the rider thinks it doesn't work. I worked with three people last year to help them determine what else was causing problems with their bike by sending them a second RR. In each time the Honda was not the problem. Try that with an ebayer.

I'm happy to provide this quick RR service as long as I can still get stock and people want them. Maybe some day all GS bikes will be updated then I can retire.

Do you mean not everyone has a Fluke 97 digital portable O-scope in their garage? I consider it the ultimate tool for electrical.

[rustybronco]

Rusty thanks for pointing out the issue with the earlier readings. I understand better how these R/R's work and what they can and can't do for charging...

Pos,
I was thinking that because of the lower resistance of the newer components, more current would be available to use at higher RPMs. I suspect there would be at least a 10% improvement in usable wattage.
sorry, I should have made myself clearer as to what I had intended.
Dale

[posplayr]

Modified thread post #49

I updated post #49 with some plots from last nite. I also added a chart of the OEM regulator at idle.

In summary, I had to modify my setup some to get a level playing field for the evaluation. The + R/R's were wired directly across the battery in the second pass (except the SH012AA) avoiding the fuse box and other harness wiring. The stator leads did come though my harness so there are probably some drops there that could be improved by going direct from stator to R/R. I feel the setup is relevant for doing side by side relative comparisons of drop out voltage and regulation at higher RPM.

The drop-out voltage is the minimum voltage across the regulator that's required to maintain the output voltage at the correct level.

The new FET technology in the FH012AA provides lower voltage drop in the lower legs of full wave (diode bridge) rectifier and so the drop out voltage appears to be improved by about 1 volt (give or take) compared to the Honda unit. That means that if the Honda unit output is were at 13.25V then the FH012AA would be at a full 14.25V.

The OEM unit seemed to be another 0.5V lower than the Honda Unit and so it clearly indicates that it has the highest drop out voltage.

I did not get a plot of the OEM unit at higher RPM, but I know that from two other units the regulated voltage keeps increasing to about 14.5 to 15.0 V unless it folds back from too much resistance in the + battery leads.

In Summary:

I think that the suggestion to measure current, while technically correct may be problematic and in fact shed no further light on operation that what can be observed from looking directly at the battery voltage.

You have to recognize that at idle, the charging system doesn't really have a whole lot of excess for charging the battery. Increase the load (e.g. lights) or reduce the RPM
and the battery will start to discharge. It takes a while to see this because the battery is basically a big capacitor and the small amount of discharge current takes a while to show as a decrease in voltage.

Regardless of the above, battery voltage only goes up because more current was pushed into the battery. Battery voltage goes down only because current was pulled from the battery (in the short term). So battery voltage is a proxy for accumulated current and so while it might be "interesting" to measure the current between battery and R/R, I'm not sure it is going to change the voltage drop out levels as that is clearly visible on the voltage charts or by comparing the output voltages under similar conditions.

isleoman: Thanks for your kind comments. While I do jhave a personnel motive (to fix my bike) I also want to contribute back to the board as best I can. I know not every body has a digital scope/laptop they can drag out to the garage to grab charging system plots .

Rusty thanks for pointing out the issue with the earlier readings. I understand better how these R/R's work and what they can and can't do for charging. As explained before, I'm not sure I can go much further. Now I'm going to concentrate on getting the SH012AA properly mounted, heat sunk and connected and then get on to complete a Dyna S/ Coil relay mod. I'll post plans as I think I do it with a minimum of harness chopping or jumper wires.

duaneage: Thanks for providing such a reliable and cost effective solution (Honda Regs). For probably 90% of the GS'ers here the Honda reg is the way to go. Some people are always trying to do better and so now we have the SH012AA .

Pos

[duaneage]

I'm a little concerned about the future availability of intake boots (and their o rings), rebuild kits, piston rings, and decent tires. Already there are limited choices in tires for the rear, perhaps we should be grateful there are any choices at all. I cut my own gaskets from gasket paper so there is an alternative.

I'm going to get enough parts to rebuild the engine in my GS and seal them up. Particularly items that wear out eventually. If the GS is sold there will always be a market for the parts anyway.

I wonder if fuel injection could be adapted to a GS? Now there is a real idea for a project. Next time I find a part out bike cheap I'm going to look into doing it.

[rustybronco]

In 20 years RR availability will be the least of our worries since at some point key parts will start to become scarce. The ignitors are going to be 50 years old as well as turn signal controllers and other items. Maybe by then we'll be riding 20 year old Hayabusas

My friend Mr Matchless already has made up the schematic, for the repair of a 30-50 year old ignitor and he was/is working on a replacement HEI substitution
now if we can get those exhausts, switches, seats, sockets, lamps, frames, motor parts...

I've been following this thread too. I don't understand it, but following none the less....A few posts back you guys were concerned about the long term health of the stator with the FH012AA.
Are you still concerned about that ?

with the stators being 30+ years old, insulation breakdown and the resulting shorting to "earth" is always a concern, regardless of the chosen R/R. most of my concern is not unlike if you were to stand at the edge of a cliff, what would it take, to put you over the edge.
if in doubt rewind it with suitable, thicker gauge wire!