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    #31
    Ok guys here goes i'll try to answer a few of the questions asked here & a couple that have popped up via pm at the same time i'll also pm folk seperately with more detail as required

    Firstly the pic of the badly bent frame ...... imo thats from accident damage not from any particular weakness in the frame itself, from the pics i'd say it would not straighten simply by pulling it on a jig......again only my opinion but that would need the front tubes replacing as well as the headstock pulling (not as difficult as its sounds if you have the right kit)

    Welding.... personally i use mig as thats what i have to hand & what i'm pretty good with, i would prefer to tig or bronze weld my frames if i'm honest but finances (& skill) dont allow that, i always drill an air hole in any new tube for gasses to escape

    Distortion during welding...... as i said ive done quite a few frames over the years some i've done on my jig & some ive done on the floor of the shed, quite a few of those shed floor jobs have later been on the jig to be checked & none have been twisted out of alignment
    The main reason for this is i always fit either a swingarm or an acurately measured piece of tube between the swingarm pivot points & bolt it up as if it was a swingarm, if you dont do this then fit brace D the frame wont squeeze in a little to the arm as it does on a stock bike & you have problems
    I always like to fit some bolted together (but empty) bottom engine cases when doing any sort of frame work to help prevent twisting but as its not always possible a simple engine sized jig made from 1" box is as good & also helps to transfer any heat away from engine mounts etc you can also use heat sinks but ive never needed to on a simple bracing job
    Another trick to help prevent distortion is to space or alternate your welds for example on the horizontal bottom part of brace D i would weld the back half of both ends of the tube first then let it cool before working on the other half (again at both ends) this means the heat generated thats is trying to bend the tube out of shape on one end is ofsett by the same amount of heat doing the same at the other end, you will be hopping from one side of the frame to the other admittedly but you wont be able to mig all the way around any of these tubes in 1 hit anyway so every little trick helps

    Brace C the most important one imo ..... for this brace i tend to use a piece of either 2.5" or 3" x1" thin walled box erw (1.8mm wall thickness if memory serves me well) the shape gives it its strenth in the required plane ! fitting this one can be tricky as because of where the rearmost part of the stock tubes bend down they also bend out, this makes the brace angled slightly from the vertical, i advise cutting the brace & tack welding it on then test fitting the tank before fully welding it
    Once happy i tack it securely in a good few places then carefully weld the inside by the do an inch leave an inch method on the inside before letting it cool then going back & doing the bits you've missed + the ends & letting it cool before welding the outside in one continuous run, again with this i would be working on both sides at once as mentioned above

    I hope thats all of some use to you all
    thanks tone

    Comment


      #32
      @Tone, If you lived in Connecticut I'd gladly let you use my Tig welder just for the learning experience (on my part). Using empty cases as heat sinks "quite right", and "brilliant" as you guys say. Thanks for a informative lesson. I use similar techniques in building recumbent bicycles and tadpole trikes for myself. Heat build up really can cause metal fatigue. I would advise anyone against using stainless steel tubing as it will crystallize inside unless the tubing is filled with an inert gas.

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        #33
        Hey zathros if i lived in your part of the world i'd take you up on that offer mate as i really do need a lot more time with a tig the only problem i could see is getting me off it lol the bonus would be that you'd probably end up with a nice jig & a few highly modded frames

        Thanks for the kind comments

        Comment


          #34
          I spent 2 and 1/2 months in Salford, outside of Manchester, U.K. in my youth. I have a soft spot for you Brits. I miss the Fish n' chips, and trifles. I do own a MG Midget (1973). I have a very small machine shop, just a milling machine, 9" back gear Southbend lathe and Mig and Tig welder. I have some very close friends and we share out expertise with eachother. I have a feeling you would fit right in. Cheers mate.

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            #35
            Originally posted by tone View Post
            Hey zathros if i lived in your part of the world i'd take you up on that offer mate as i really do need a lot more time with a tig the only problem i could see is getting me off it lol the bonus would be that you'd probably end up with a nice jig & a few highly modded frames

            Thanks for the kind comments
            We should all pitch in for an airline ticket, give you an old GS to get around the country on, and let you fix up all of our frames for us. I have three for you to do.


            Life is too short to ride an L.

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by tkent02 View Post
              We should all pitch in for an airline ticket, give you an old GS to get around the country on, and let you fix up all of our frames for us. I have three for you to do.

              we could set him up with a mobile welder on a trailer that he can pull behind him with a swing-out bench, mounted saw, and tube bender....oh, and don't forget the small Honda 2000w generator to power everything!!!!

              We just buy the tubing ahead of time and he rides and like Superman and saves the day

              Comment


                #37
                Fashinaetin!
                Very timely too - long weekend coming I was gonna finish up my 7/10 bracing but due to misinformation (or misunderstanding information) from a long ago post - I had it all wrong. Cept for the 1" thin wall material used.
                Looks like I've got more work (play) ahead of me. And thousands of questions of course - oh here's one now.

                I'd like to preserve the coil mounting location which is disturbed by the install of tubes at A (headstock brace) hows about using a triangular plate with the flat facing front instead of the two tubes? Just a thought. Of course that may be the cable tunnel I'm messing with... Sorry, tired and far from the shop.

                And I swear this is absolutely the last thread I'm going to subscribe to. Really, I swear it.
                JC
                Last edited by Guest; 05-21-2009, 12:25 AM. Reason: absolutely!

                Comment


                  #38
                  Hi JC
                  As i've said i rarely fit the headstock bracing (A) on these frames as i'm not convinced its needed & can decern no diferance in the frames stiffness by doing it, if i'm forced i fit brace B alone (Z900 & Z1000 kwacks are a different story )

                  Having said that i do see the problem & agree a nicely shaped steel plate would do the job just as well in terms of stiffness (if you really think you need it) the problem with steel plate in this area is that you will need to cut some of it away for routing cables etc through & it may be in the way of the front tank mounts

                  Hope this helps
                  tone

                  Comment


                    #39
                    what if i wanted to remove the entire rear section of the frame, leaving only the headstock and engine hoop? i want to build a custom subframe, a bolt-on one. i plan to chop the rear section off and weld half-tube pieces over the holes. then, weld tabs about 3" long longitudinal to the vertical portions of the engine hoop and have holes for bolting up a subframe im building.


                    the reason why i ask, is that Tone suggests brace "D" is one of the most important. i agree with E and C, but in my head, i wont have anything to run "D" to.

                    keep in mind, this is only a street bike, no track and no super aggressive riding.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      JED,
                      I added some freebody diagrams here; maybe this would help answer your question

                      This forum contains old posts which may have information which may be useful. It is a closed forum in that you can not post here any longer. Please post your questions in the other technical forums.


                      Pos

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                        #41
                        very nice and informative, but the light bulb doesnt go off.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by posplayr View Post
                          JED,
                          I added some freebody diagrams here; maybe this would help answer your question

                          This forum contains old posts which may have information which may be useful. It is a closed forum in that you can not post here any longer. Please post your questions in the other technical forums.


                          Pos
                          Nice diagram. How hard would it be to create a 3D Solidworks model of a GS frame and do some finite elemental analysis on it? Just dreamin'....

                          Comment


                            #43
                            PJ.
                            A model would be useful, but it depends on what you are trying to get out of it. While understanding the internal stresses of the frame and understanding the relative benefits of adding braces is certain areas would be important, we really don't know the external loads as they vary with track conditions. So the primary benefits will be relative performance.
                            Generally models are developed with data to "verify" or calibrate the model. We are not likely to get that. Without that data it is hard to get absolute numbers.

                            If some one that is an ME here and wants to take it on as a project, I'm sure you would learn plenty and have fun at the same time. unfortunately that is not me

                            Having said that, the diagram is useful as it makes it clearer, where the loading occurs and why the OEM frame is braced as it is. From a perspective of high performance frame bracing, I think keeping the torque diagram in mind is useful in incrementally changing the frame. Hopefully it makes clear why having those central "C" gussets is so important to resisting overall twist.

                            I would caution anyone that trying to start from scatch on bracing using a FEM would be the long way to go as we already have very good examples of the right bracing to add, we are now just trying to perform a relative merit assessment for street use.

                            Jim

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by posplayr View Post
                              JED,
                              I added some freebody diagrams here; maybe this would help answer your question

                              This forum contains old posts which may have information which may be useful. It is a closed forum in that you can not post here any longer. Please post your questions in the other technical forums.


                              Pos
                              I think your loads are not quite right.

                              Diagram 1 you are missing the resultant force at the swingarm pivot bolt. That force would be pulling down and away from the frame at the pivot bolt.
                              The force acting at the fork wouldn't be vertical at that point. The force is at the wheel which is offset from the support so you would have an additional moment at that point in the frame. This moment could be shown as two counteracting forces one at the top of the stem and one at the bottom. The bottom of the stem is pulling in and the top of the stem is pushing out.

                              Diagram 2 is interesting but I dont agree that changing the axis of "A" would be beneficial. That brace is additionally resisting the moment developed from the wheels distance from the frame. I would imagine that that the load in the front would increase at higher speed cornering which would could torque the front stem. Having "A" braced at its angle would resist that.

                              Developing a static model wouldn't be hard but who actually knows the forces developed from riding in a turn? Looking at the frame like this really helps to explain why the monoshock is the modern rear suspension.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                wow, my head suddenly feels like my brain is trying to bust out.

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