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    GS Stators : Helpful additions

    Hi all,
    Anybody that has been here for any length of time knows that the GS Stator pages are one of the most often sited sources of information for diagnosis of GS electrical and charging system problems. The fault finding page is really a wonderful thing and leads the GS owner through what for many is a scary proposition of diagnosing an electrical system.




    I used them the first time I got my GS750EX and was able to diagnose my GS charging system and restore it's operation without changing any parts. While I think that GS Stator pages have been very helpful to many, there is some room for improvement. I reviewed the diagnosis table this morning to see what my biggest issues would be. I tried to keep the basic format in mind as it seems to be a written at the right level to be understood by the broadest audience.

    I'm putting this out for comments so that we can get an update to the Phase A section of the Stator Diagnosis page. See modified table with highlights in red and bold.

    Because Phase A really is the primary phase of diagnosis which branches to R/R or stator openloop tests it is a little trickier than Phase B or C. In addition I would wager that 75-80% of GS charging problems could be solved in Phase A alone and probably 15% of the remainder would not have happened if the connections were proper in the first place. So it is an important place to focus. There is the danger of course of making it too complicated. Being an engineer, I might have done that, but hopeful there is enough marginal increase in understanding to justify the added complexity.

    Posplayr

    Link to Revised PHASE A of Stator Pages:
    http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/3970...43-am-55k?da=y


    Here is what I tried to do in modifying it:

    • Highlight with a table what you are doing in each step. I think this helps provide focus. I know when I was going through the table, I was not real clear what I was doing at every step in Phase A.
    • The first step is to insure that the is some charging going on when you raise the idle up to 2500 RPM the battery voltage should increase. If it doesn't then you should still test and clean the connections in Step 2 and 3 but if the stator is bad, then you will get through all of Phase A and still have low output.
    • Modify the voltage drop tests which are specified at idle to be less than 0.2 volts to perform the test at 5000 RPM and be less than 0.25V. This is critical as you could easily have less than 0.2 volts at idle and the have that voltage rise to 0.5-0.75 at 5000 RPM when the system is trying to push current to the battery. Depending upon the variability of the GS idle you might even be discharging and so the voltage drop will not even show up. This is probably the biggest issue in the diagnosis table.
    • Modified the table to show an explicit 14.0-14.8 Battery charging range at 5000RPM. The is somewhat narrower than the Suzuki specificed 14.0 - 15.5V range. Regardless of the manual 15.5V at the battery is too high.
    • Modified the table to insure that all three steps in Phase A are done even if you pass the output voltage range. This is important as the output voltage range is quite wide and it is not hard to com in with a 14.0V charging level due to some bad connections and in 2-3 months that corrosion has gotten worse and you are now charging at 13.5V. You would not really know this if all you did was look at the battery voltage. It is absolutely critical that the R/R is connected across the battery with low resistance and measuring the voltage at 5000 RM when charging is near maximum is a fool proof way of confirming proper operation.



    For Posterity: More early analysis of the Shunt PM Systems and a hypothetical discussion of a Series R/R. Looks like my First Thread I ever started.

    This forum contains old posts which may have information which may be useful. It is a closed forum in that you can not post here any longer. Please post your questions in the other technical forums.


    This forum contains old posts which may have information which may be useful. It is a closed forum in that you can not post here any longer. Please post your questions in the other technical forums.


    I just saw your post and I was considering the same today. It might help if the two units are closely matched so they share current. Then you have basically more power handeling capacity. Otherwise it might be that only one carries the shunt current and the other waits in reserve. Not the best solution but possibly better than no backup which is what a single regulator is. This also does nothing to reduce the stress on the stator when it is cranking mega amps at 10K RPM.

    A better solution is to have the series regulator then if it fails (hopefully open) then the generator power goes no where. With the shunt regulator, if the shunt dies (open for example), then there is no place for the generator power to go but cook the battery and fry the electronics. If it shorts it is worse.

    Even if the series regulator shorts it is no worse then the best case shunt. And more than likely the series will go open or have no output so it is hard to argue that there is any situation where the series regulator is worse than this shunt approach. 99% of the time it will be better.

    Bottom line is that it will help about a 1/4 of the potential problems but ther are better approaches (I think).

    Posplayr
    __________________
    Last edited by posplayr; 06-20-2014, 02:57 PM.

    #2
    I feel this not only checks the charging but also checks the health of the connetions.
    Good stuff Jim. Ya know you can't rewrite the Bible so good luck with the masses.
    1983 GS 1100E w/ 1230 kit, .340 lift Web Cams, Ape heavy duty valve springs, 83 1100 head with 1.5mm oversized SS intake valves, 1150 crank, Vance and Hines 1150 SuperHub, Star Racing high volume oil pump gears, 36mm carebs Dynojet stage 3 jet kit, Posplayr's SSPB, Progressive rear shocks and fork springs, Dyna 2000, Dynatek green coils and Vance & Hines 4-1 exhaust.
    1985 GS1150ES stock with 85 Red E bodywork.

    Comment


      #3
      Hi Mr. posplayer,

      This is a terrific addendum to the venerable Stator Papers. It contains a few things that the original author did not stress enough (Clean those connections!) and expounds on the critical voltage drop connections and their ideal measurements. Checking the charging system at operating speed (4000-5000 rpm) is very important to the health of the components. Nice work.

      Thank you for your indulgence,

      BassCliff

      Comment


        #4
        Saved the .pdf. We electrical noobs need this hand-holding.
        Dogma
        --
        O LORD, be gracious to me; heal me, for I have sinned against you! - David

        Skeptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep insights can be winnowed from deep nonsense. - Carl Sagan

        --
        '80 GS850 GLT
        '80 GS1000 GT
        '01 ZRX1200R

        How to get a "What's New" feed without the Vortex, and without permanently quitting the Vortex

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Dogma View Post
          Saved the .pdf. We electrical noobs need this hand-holding.
          I figured you'd learned it all during the B.C Rally two weeks ago at the gas station in Worthington (electrical troubleshooting, not bump starting).


          By the way, I got my new stator installed last week. It's now charging at 14.4 VAC again.
          sigpic

          SUZUKI:
          1978 GS1000E; 1980 GS1000G; 1982 GS650E; 1982 GS1100G; 1982 GS1100E; 1985 GS700ES
          HONDA: 1981 CB900F Super Sport
          KAWASAKI: 1981 KZ550A-2; 1984 ZX750A-2 (aka GPZ750); 1984 KZ700A-1
          YAMAHA: 1983 XJ750RK Seca

          Free speech is the foundation of an open society. Each time a society bans a word or phrase it deems “offensive”, it chips away at that very foundation upon which it was built.

          Comment


            #6
            Seems straightforward enough. I like it.

            Thanks posplayer!

            Rick

            Comment


              #7
              OK all,
              Thanks for the comments. I will clean it up to remove the change bars and some other stuff. I'm also thinking about some other introductory stuff to supplement what is on the posted GS Stator pages and sent a link to Frank for incorporation.
              I'll post back here first so anybody that has comments/suggestions can post here.
              Please bear in mind, that not everybody needs such handholding but it is clear that with the number of charging questions that come up we could do a little better.
              Pos

              Comment


                #8
                Thanks, just in time. Went to start the bike at lunch time, and the battery was dead

                Comment


                  #9
                  Excellent job! A flow chart approach is always much easier to follow and getting your recent experiments and actual hands on testing incorporated makes a lot of sense.
                  I always have great appreciation for anyone who is prepared to share knowledge and you always do a thorough job of that!

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Good notes. I just used the original chart yesterday and it helped me pinpoint the culprit, but I had to skip ahead in the chart. My R/R ground wire test had a large voltage drop but it was not the issue, a grounded stator is.
                    I would recommend adding a line to the ground wire fault section recommending to check the stator grounding before returning to the start of testing.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      One of the things that was always wrong in the stator papers was their procedure for diagnosing voltage above 15.5 (or 14.8 if you change it ...)

                      Your answer is better than it was, but AFAIK, if you see higher than that, the diagnosis should immediately be that the R/R is blown (unless you have an aftermarket sense wire R/R, in which case the sense wire may be connected to a low voltage point)

                      For low voltage, there can be many issues; but to the best of my knowledge, no other connection issue or stator fault will give you 15 volts plus.

                      Recommend changing so that a high voltage is immediately diagnosed as R/R replacement. (and put in some kind of note about the sense wire in case someone is using the chart to diagnose a high voltage with a 6 wire R/R)

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by bakalorz View Post
                        For low voltage, there can be many issues; but to the best of my knowledge, no other connection issue or stator fault will give you 15 volts plus.
                        Unless the regulator is designed to charge at that voltage.

                        Technical Info posts that are deemed to be important or popular will be placed here for easier access. If you feel a post should be moved from the Technical Info forum to here then PM the Administrator with your request.

                        Kawasaki ZX10 2005 Shindengen FH-010BA 12V 50A rating 14.3V -15.1V...
                        Jim, I think an addendum for the preferred (optimum) voltage ranges for AGM and Lead Acid battery types might be a nice addition to your pages.
                        De-stinking Penelope http://thegsresources.com/_forum/sho...d.php?t=179245

                        http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...35#post1625535

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by bakalorz View Post
                          One of the things that was always wrong in the stator papers was their procedure for diagnosing voltage above 15.5 (or 14.8 if you change it ...)

                          Your answer is better than it was, but AFAIK, if you see higher than that, the diagnosis should immediately be that the R/R is blown (unless you have an aftermarket sense wire R/R, in which case the sense wire may be connected to a low voltage point)
                          I agree with you (with Rustybronco's caveat), but does this happen much in reality?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I have seen an overcharing OEM system (my GS750EX and others) get restored to complete function by changing connection (no parts changes). I still don't have a failure mechanisim for it but I know it exists.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Rusty,
                              If we assume at 5000 RPM that the non sensing regulator has a max limit of 14.3V -15.1V at it's terminals, then with 0.25V drops on both leads you get back down to 14.05-14.85V at the battery. This is essentially the same voltage range as in the original stator pages 14.0-14.8V.
                              Jim

                              Originally posted by rustybronco View Post
                              Unless the regulator is designed to charge at that voltage.

                              Technical Info posts that are deemed to be important or popular will be placed here for easier access. If you feel a post should be moved from the Technical Info forum to here then PM the Administrator with your request.



                              Jim, I think an addendum for the preferred (optimum) voltage ranges for AGM and Lead Acid battery types might be a nice addition to your pages.

                              Comment

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