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    #46
    The disconnected test was just to get a base-line without the Module connected so I expected bat voltage and that was what I received.


    For the connected test, I was trying to determine the source of the voltage drop.
    The ignition and switch have been completed disassembled, cleaned and rebuilt prior to any the latest tests.
    It was actually rebuilt the last time I worked (a few months ago) and my test results were the same before and after the cleaning.

    Once the battery is changed, I will disconnect the switch entirely to see if there is a change.

    Thanks
    Alt.
    Last edited by TheAlt; 09-06-2022, 10:58 AM.
    "You are replying to the most modest person you will ever know."

    1982 Suzuki GS 450A
    1980 Honda CM400A
    2002 Honda Relex
    1957 H35 Bonanza

    Comment


      #47
      Something different.
      I will check more after the battery is charged.
      In the headlight assembly I traced back the leads from the ignition switch
      Pulled the orange and white leads apart. (done this before)
      Cleaned them
      Put them back together.
      Now, both when I click the ignition off, or tap the starter button there is 1 spark on each click. I'm just tapping the starter button to complete the contact but the engine is turning enough to reach the spark trigger.
      __**** Update.. Now no spark when tapping the starter when fully charged.*** just noting the behavior not saying it's a problem..

      Still No spark when cranking over though.

      Alt
      Last edited by TheAlt; 09-06-2022, 05:46 PM.
      "You are replying to the most modest person you will ever know."

      1982 Suzuki GS 450A
      1980 Honda CM400A
      2002 Honda Relex
      1957 H35 Bonanza

      Comment


        #48
        Some additional tests
        Signal Generator is about 353 ohms on each GW BW and BR / BW lead. Quite higher than the book

        Coils
        Primary was 5.3 ohm
        Secondary is 22 ohm
        Secondaries were not, till I cut back some old wire and put the caps back on.

        Next, I will work on the Ignitor once I figure out the test.
        "You are replying to the most modest person you will ever know."

        1982 Suzuki GS 450A
        1980 Honda CM400A
        2002 Honda Relex
        1957 H35 Bonanza

        Comment


          #49
          Originally posted by pdqford View Post
          Nothing is going to happen!
          Applying 12v to the Plus terminal is not going to charge up the coil as no current will flow through the coil if the ground side isn’t, um, grounded.

          I’d just connect 12v to the positive side, and when you want the coil to charge up, connect a grounded wire to the ground side of the coil, and when you want the coil to throw a spark, release the ground.
          FYI on this comment.
          I will note
          Ignition on
          12vdc applied to +
          tap the negative and they spark Though more difficult to reproduce than I expected since I can tap a few times and it sparks maybe 1 out of 5 times

          Now
          Ignition OFF
          12vdc connected
          when I connect the - lead. each coils continuously sparks. I'm not removing the - lead. Solidly connected.

          So it's a bit odd to see both sparking, but perhaps it's just arching past the Primary and Secondary? Seems unusual. Again, not saying it's an issue. just seems odd.
          "You are replying to the most modest person you will ever know."

          1982 Suzuki GS 450A
          1980 Honda CM400A
          2002 Honda Relex
          1957 H35 Bonanza

          Comment


            #50
            Due to the very high ohms readings on both Signal leads, I've ordered a full Dyna S kit that per the manufacturer, can be used on a 450 with a 1/8" spacer.
            "You are replying to the most modest person you will ever know."

            1982 Suzuki GS 450A
            1980 Honda CM400A
            2002 Honda Relex
            1957 H35 Bonanza

            Comment


              #51
              Dyna S kit wont fit and work on this bike. At least not without some more interesting mods as it's designed for a factory mechanical timer.

              I close to throwing in the towel on this project though.

              My last testing and voltage drop test were
              Measuring the voltage on the orange / white coil leads.

              1) only hook up the min to have spark and cranking.(starter disconnect and ignition switch and Kill switch
              2) disconnect ignitor to and coil + and - to get volt reading when ignition is on. >> .This gives me a .10 volt drop. so 13.50 drops to 13.40vdc.
              3) connect the + and - to the coils and recheck >>> Same voltage reading as 2 13.40
              4) connect the ignitor +2volts drop without cranking. 11.40+
              5) crank the starter Another +1.5 to 2v drop. 9.50 - 10.00 vdc.


              Next
              I disconnected the + and - from the coils and left the ignitor connected >> 13.40 vdc
              Connected O/W to one of the coils leaving the - disconnected. >>> 13.40
              Connected the W - lead from the coil >>> +2vdc drop
              Disconnected W lead and connected B/Y - lead >>> +2vdc drop.

              Tested the other coil isolated and had the same results measuring at the O/W wire on the coil

              Also measuring the W or B/Y wire when either coil is connected, the drop is another 1+ volts



              I would say something in the ignitor circuit, but voltage is okay till the either coil + and - connected.
              There is a drop in the coil. I would expect this, but not sure how much.

              Also measured the B / Y and W wires coming out of the ignitor to the - side of the coil. Same Low voltage when + and - wires are connected to either coil.



              "You are replying to the most modest person you will ever know."

              1982 Suzuki GS 450A
              1980 Honda CM400A
              2002 Honda Relex
              1957 H35 Bonanza

              Comment


                #52
                ".......................











                Originally posted by TheAlt View Post
                I’LL TAKE A CRACK AT THIS.
                I’LL USE ALL CAPS SO MY RESPONSES WILL STAND OUT.

                My last testing and voltage drop test were
                Measuring the voltage on the orange / white coil leads.
                I SUSPECT YOU HAVE THE PLUS LEAD OF YOUR DMM ON THE O/W WIRE AND THE NEG LEAD OF THE METER ON GROUND.
                (THAT WILL NOT MEASURE VOLTAGE DROP IN THE COIL FEED CIRCUIT.)

                1) only hook up the min to have spark and cranking.(starter disconnect and ignition switch and Kill switch
                2) disconnect ignitor to and coil + and - to get volt reading when ignition is on. >> .This gives me a .10 volt drop. so 13.50 drops to 13.40vdc.
                A VOLTAGE DROP OCCURS ONLY WHEN THE CIRCUIT BEING TESTED HAS CURRENT FLOWING THROUGH IT.
                IF YOU HAVE DISCONNECTED THE COIL PLUS AND NEG HOW IS CURRENT FLOWING THROUGH THE O/W WIRE?
                SO YOUR METER WILL READ WHAT IS REFERRED TO “OPEN CIRCUIT VOLTAGE”.
                (YOU WOULD GET THE SAME READING IF YOU MOVED THE PLUS METER LEAD BACK TO THE BATTERY POSITIVE POST.)
                3) connect the + and - to the coils and recheck >>> Same voltage reading as 2 13.40
                AGAIN, IF THE O/W WIRE IS NOT FLOWING CURRENT, THERE IS NO VOLTAGE DROP IN THE O/W WIRE.
                4) connect the ignitor +2volts drop without cranking. 11.40+
                OKAY, NOW THE O/W WIRE IS NOW FLOWING CURRENT BECAUSE THE IGNITOR IS PULLING THE CIRCUIT TO GROUND AND YOU ARE SEEING A VOLTAGE DROP IN THE O/W CIRCUIT.
                5) crank the starter Another +1.5 to 2v drop. 9.50 - 10.00 vdc.
                PART OF WHAT YOU ARE CALLING A VOLTAGE DROP IS BECAUSE THE BATTERY CAN’T MAINTAIN A FULL 12.6V WHILE POWERING EVERYTHING AT ONCE.

                THE WAY TO MEASURE VOLTAGE DROP IN THE COIL PLUS CIRCUIT IS TO PUT THE POSITIVE MEATER LEAD ON THE POSITIVE BATTERY POST AND THE NEGATIVE LEAD OF THE METER ON THE COIL + TERMINAL.

                NEXT POWER UP THE COIL CIRCUIT SO THE O/W CIRCUIT IS FLOWING CURRENT. ANY CURRENT THAT CAN’T FLOW THROUGH THE O/W BECAUSE OF RESISTANCE (CORROSION, OR WHATEVER) WILL FLOW THROUGH THE METER AND BE READ AS VOLTAGE DROP. IT WILL REFLECT ANY RESISTANCE BETWEEN THE BATTERY POSITIVE POST AND THE POSITIVE BATTERY CLAMP, BETWEEN THE CLAM AND THE POSITIVE BATTERY CABLE, RESISTANCE IN THE POSITIVE BATTERY CABLE BETWEEN THE BATTERY END OF THE CABLE AND WHERE IT IS CONNECTED, AND SO ON, AND SO ON, THROUGH THE IGNITION SWITCH, ETC., ETC.

                YOU COULD THEN MOVE THE POSITIVE METER LEAD FROM THE POSITIVE BATTERY POST UP TO THE IGNITION FUSE AND MEASURE THE VOLTAGE DROP BETWEEN THAT POINT AND THE COIL PLUS TERMINAL, TO PIN POINT WHERE THE DROP IS OCCURRING.


                Next
                I disconnected the + and - from the coils and left the ignitor connected >> 13.40 vdc
                Connected O/W to one of the coils leaving the - disconnected. >>> 13.40
                Connected the W - lead from the coil >>> +2vdc drop
                Disconnected W lead and connected B/Y - lead >>> +2vdc drop.

                Tested the other coil isolated and had the same results measuring at the O/W wire on the coil

                Also measuring the W or B/Y wire when either coil is connected, the drop is another 1+ volts



                I would say something in the ignitor circuit, but voltage is okay till the either coil + and - connected.
                There is a drop in the coil. I would expect this, but not sure how much



                Jim, in Central New York State.

                1980 GS750E (bought used June,1983)
                1968 CB350 Super Sport (bought new Oct,1968)
                1962 CA77 305 Dream (bought used Feb,1963)

                Comment


                  #53
                  Here is a better explanation of voltage drop testing than I can explain:

                  Voltage drop testing allows the technician to monitor voltage loss in a circuit. Voltage drop should be checked with the circuit loaded and a fully-charged b...
                  Jim, in Central New York State.

                  1980 GS750E (bought used June,1983)
                  1968 CB350 Super Sport (bought new Oct,1968)
                  1962 CA77 305 Dream (bought used Feb,1963)

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Here is a longer version with actual voltage drop testing.
                    Note that it doesn’t mater if the circuit being tested is the starter circuit, or the coil circuit, hone circuit, etc.
                    Electricity is electricity.

                    Even most advanced DIY's and troubleshooters are not familiar with Voltage Drop Testing. This video shows a real life example of how lack of knowledge of thi...
                    Jim, in Central New York State.

                    1980 GS750E (bought used June,1983)
                    1968 CB350 Super Sport (bought new Oct,1968)
                    1962 CA77 305 Dream (bought used Feb,1963)

                    Comment


                      #55
                      It really should be simpler than all this...your battery seems ok per voltages and as pqford says starting the bike "pulls it down" as much as it ever will be though a slight help is disconnecting an 'always on" headlamp.

                      Have you yet simply applied momentary voltage to each coil and see them spark? ie: disconnect the black box and touch the primary's ground wire to ground.

                      Dirty kill switch or key switch or connections etc ...these are the easiest and most comprehensible uses of "voltage drop" being ideally 0 and so lossless. It's also possible to take all these out of the equation with "jumpers" across them but they shouldn't need to be unless a problem is found.

                      By the way, aren't your "pickups" different than the normal gs450/gsx400's? they don't look like mine. if so, the correct ohm reading might be higher for yours...y...for a lark, maybe you could test their output spinning the motor when disconnected from black box...cheap meters arent great at this but if both pickups show the same...and this speaks to the principle of "things don't usually burn out in pairs" of course they can, but usually "both bad" should redirect troubleshooting to their commonalities...things like the plate they are mounted to not being grounded or a bad battery or...

                      It may be your (TCI)blackbox but I would worry everything else to the max first. It so often is a simple thing...and, there are also a few tests you can try on the black box too- applying a flashlight battery to mimic the signal generators is one i remember.

                      the title of the thread "No Spark either side till i release the starter button" suggests that the coil is suddenly getting enough power and releasing it as a spark only when the starter is not drawing power...again, if it's not a battery "output problem" which it doesn't seem to be, then it might be a ground problem. People have had a lot of success in ignition issues grounding the plate the TCI is mounted on with a jumper to frame or even battery. A "static" VD test won't always show this and digital meters might not even running as it's a pulse. They are not great for pulses.

                      Last edited by Gorminrider; 09-26-2022, 12:37 PM.

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Hi Gorminrider.
                        Thanks for your reply and also to pdqford


                        Headlight is disconnected as is any other unused item.
                        Voltage drop vid has been viewed a few times. I seem to be at an issue where things go into black boxes vs just endpoint to endpoint testing thought
                        I feel like I've narrowed it down to somewhere in the coils or the b/y / w leads
                        Only seems to be an issue with black box connected and the coils hooked up as they should be.



                        Directly applying voltage to the coil is
                        a) with the kill switch OFF. they spark like mad when applying 12vdc direct to the coil
                        b) with the kill switch ON. both O/W and White (negative lead) connected to the coil. Black box disconnected, and 12vdc additionally applied to the coil + tapping the negative W, or B/Y will cause a very light spark.


                        Kill Switch could not be cleaner. Was thoroughly disassembled and cleaned with wire brushes, contact cleaner and dielectric greased and reassembled.


                        My pickups are definitely different on the GA model Hence my asking someone with a same setup test theirs for comparison as 350ohms may be okay for this flavor, but not finding it in the book for a GA.
                        Not using a cheapo meter on this though.
                        Did also test with the dyna S signal generator with an additional ground to it.
                        Also,
                        IMHO the Dyna S test was an unexpected failure too.
                        It uses new coils, no Ignitor.
                        So you are basically powering their coils and using their signal generator and magnet on an armature.
                        I'd think even putting this test on a bench would initial some spark, which I had none on the bike.


                        Black box mounting screws are cleaned and making good connection to the frame.
                        I could try an addition clipped wire from the box to another location, but did this months ago. Still will do it again.
                        I've read what I could about the battery / ignitor test. >> Have not tried, but will see if this gives more info.



                        I do have a oscilloscope I may see if I can figure out a way to capture a pulse from the Signal Generator. but I'm a complete NOOB with it.

                        Thanks
                        Alt
                        "You are replying to the most modest person you will ever know."

                        1982 Suzuki GS 450A
                        1980 Honda CM400A
                        2002 Honda Relex
                        1957 H35 Bonanza

                        Comment


                          #57
                          GS450ignition.jpg

                          (this^ seems as big as i can upload but it might be zoomable downloaded..?)
                          Directly applying voltage to the coil is
                          a) with the kill switch OFF. they spark like mad when applying 12vdc direct to the coil
                          b) with the kill switch ON. both O/W and White (negative lead) connected to the coil. Black box disconnected, and 12vdc additionally applied to the coil + tapping the negative W, or B/Y will cause a very light spark.
                          suspicious? Given that there should be no diff in these two excepting a voltage drop from "other loads" (?!) turned on by the key switch...any other loads to disconnect? Maybe testfor something unwanted-(ammeter) or have you tried shunting across the Key switch?

                          otherwise per black box, naturally, IT has a voltage drop in line with the coils...semi-conductorish, silicon - say at least about .065volt ...
                          ....if you can isolate ignition circuit entirely as a whole, applying a "signal" to duplicate the sensors' (aka the penlight batteries-see bass-cliffs-the test is there I think but I have it stored too) seemingly should work.

                          haven't had to do it, but spinning the crank should produce something from the sensors on a volttmeter..hopefully equal on each.

                          I'm not sure exactly how they apply to the TCI...simply, it seems they should interfere with a signal that normally "gates" an scr or transistor to ground...ie: stopping the coil primary supply and allowing secondary collapse...
                          Last edited by Gorminrider; 09-27-2022, 12:57 PM.

                          Comment


                            #58
                            AND ONE UPDATE
                            The title is no longer true. Now it only sparks when I move the kill to OFF.
                            Been that way for a few months since I cleaned all connections



                            I just tried the shunt between Orange and Red at the key connector with that piece unplugged.
                            Kill switch ON
                            Crossed the Solenoid to crank the engine.

                            No spark / change.

                            Will go over more of your above later.
                            Last edited by TheAlt; 09-27-2022, 04:52 PM.
                            "You are replying to the most modest person you will ever know."

                            1982 Suzuki GS 450A
                            1980 Honda CM400A
                            2002 Honda Relex
                            1957 H35 Bonanza

                            Comment


                              #59
                              I did the ignitor tests per Clymers.
                              Using a 1.6 AA battery with good voltage.
                              Ignition on
                              Coils directly powered 12.40vdc.


                              1) disconnected the signal generator
                              2) shoved the negative up the B/W ignitor connector
                              3) touched Br or G/W leads with the positive.

                              No spark.
                              Now I could be doing this test incorrectly, but attached on the photos of the Clymer and my setup showing the red + line from the AA battery touching the Br terminal (I touch and release)

                              Also tried a line direct from the Ignitor mounting screw to the - on the battery' (auto battery)
                              You do not have permission to view this gallery.
                              This gallery has 1 photos.
                              Last edited by TheAlt; 09-27-2022, 06:25 PM.
                              "You are replying to the most modest person you will ever know."

                              1982 Suzuki GS 450A
                              1980 Honda CM400A
                              2002 Honda Relex
                              1957 H35 Bonanza

                              Comment


                                #60
                                And the Clymers excerpt
                                You do not have permission to view this gallery.
                                This gallery has 1 photos.
                                "You are replying to the most modest person you will ever know."

                                1982 Suzuki GS 450A
                                1980 Honda CM400A
                                2002 Honda Relex
                                1957 H35 Bonanza

                                Comment

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