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Thread: When :science goes wrong

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    Quote Originally Posted by storm 64 View Post
    How does that old Margarin commercial go? "It's not nice to fool with mother nature"...
    Yes, indeed. In this case that is exactly where things went downhill In fact, I had expected to see Don post something along that line, perhaps "Nature bats last".
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    "Native peoples generally adapted to this fluidity, shoring up the land or moving to higher ground as floodwaters rose. But then European imperialists came to colonize. Colonization meant permanency, and permanency meant imposing engineering rigidity on this soft, wet landscape: levees to keep water out, canals to dry soil, and in time, pumps to push and lift water out of canals lined with floodwalls."

    You might argue that the native peoples were the scientists here.
    There is a town 20km north of here that decided that the old stone bridge was insufficient and they needed a second.
    Consultants got to work and a beautiful flat bridge was built in sharp contrast to the vaulted arches of the old pointy head stone bridge.
    Within a decade the river had blocked the inadequate 'arches' and water rose over the handrails.
    Now the same consultants are talking about the need for a better bridge.
    Unfortunately the old bridge was so good that the builders had long since passed are were not around to be interviewed.
    Nevertheless an engineer worth his salt has to be looking upstream and asking why did they do it that way.
    They may not have had CAD but that doesn't mean they were dumb.
    Quite the reverse in fact.
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    Quote Originally Posted by argonsagas View Post
    I fail to see how or why there is any confusion, as engineers were involved in the planning and implementation of so much of the work for many decades, as was stated in the article.

    Perhaps how professional and/or educational qualifications are described in other countries varies from Canada, but here, engineering actually requires a degree in science.

    With University of Toronto as example, prospective engineers must get a degree in science before they can officially call themselves engineers, specifically Bachelor of Applied Science.
    " Applied Science " isn't a science degree. It's an engineering degree. The clue is in the name " applying the science " which is the definition of what an engineer does .... The scientist comes up with the idea and the engineer makes it work .....
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    Quote Originally Posted by bccap View Post
    " Applied Science " isn't a science degree. It's an engineering degree. The clue is in the name " applying the science " which is the definition of what an engineer does .... The scientist comes up with the idea and the engineer makes it work .....
    Ya and a bachelor's degree in the arts makes someone an artist. LOL.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bccap View Post
    " Applied Science " isn't a science degree. It's an engineering degree. The clue is in the name " applying the science " which is the definition of what an engineer does .... The scientist comes up with the idea and the engineer makes it work .....
    Semantics. The word "scientist" was not used, however the word "science" was. That word is a broad and general term used for studies in many areas, such as chemistry, biology, flight, and dozens more. Ultimately, all of those who become formally equipped with such knowledge use.....apply....their knowledge to their chosen field of endeavour .

    Perhaps we can agree on this: the reality in New Orleans is there were many people whose advanced level(s) of education saw them become fully educated/trained in accordance with the science standards of the period in which they acquired their expert status through education and they became formally qualified in how to "apply the science".

    Having formally learned the latest scientific knowledge of the day multiple engineers applied their expertise/acquired scientific knowledge over a span of many decades, however their collective efforts at "applying the science", led to conditions that altered what the article states were originally stable, above sea-level, conditions of the land and thus portions of the City of New Orleans that had been subjected to application of known and established science sank below sea level
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    Quote Originally Posted by argonsagas View Post
    Semantics. The word "scientist" was not used, however the word "science" was. That word is a broad and general term used for studies in many areas, such as chemistry, biology, flight, and dozens more. Ultimately, all of those who become formally equipped with such knowledge use.....apply....their knowledge to their chosen field of endeavour .

    Perhaps we can agree on this: the reality in New Orleans is there were many people whose advanced level(s) of education saw them become fully educated/trained in accordance with the science standards of the period in which they acquired their expert status through education and they became formally qualified in how to "apply the science".

    Having formally learned the latest scientific knowledge of the day multiple engineers applied their expertise/acquired scientific knowledge over a span of many decades, however their collective efforts at "applying the science", led to conditions that altered what the article states were originally stable, above sea-level, conditions of the land and thus portions of the City of New Orleans that had been subjected to application of known and established science sank below sea level
    You're a fine one to comment on mincing words.
    The Mississippi is not stable it moves by the myriad forces acting upon it.
    The implementation of works would have been decided upon by politics.

    Iirc they are dismantling the cement ditch that was a river in Los Angeles.

    Ultimately your post is typical of your wanting to appear superior by twisting words to match the sorry fantasy that plays out in your reason deficient mind.
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    Contrast New Orleans with Amsterdam, 2,500 yrs of living on land below sea level the dutch learned to live with water rather than fight it. Illiterate farmers who figured it not with science but experience, trial and error over many centuries. It wasn't until the last couple hundred years or so when educated engineers took over that problems really arose, likely over confident that their formal education could be more aggressive and do more than in previous centuries. Humbled by their failures to they needed back off and concede that they needed to work with the sea and rivers not fight them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyly View Post
    Contrast New Orleans with Amsterdam, 2,500 yrs of living on land below sea level the dutch learned to live with water rather than fight it. Illiterate farmers who figured it not with science but experience, trial and error over many centuries. It wasn't until the last couple hundred years or so when educated engineers took over that problems really arose, likely over confident that their formal education could be more aggressive and do more than in previous centuries. Humbled by their failures to they needed back off and concede that they needed to work with the sea and rivers not fight them.

    Sometimes, the best way to deal with adversity is to take a step to the side, and go around it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by earlfor View Post
    Sometimes, the best way to deal with adversity is to take a step to the side, and go around it.
    Gonna need a bigger boat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimly View Post
    Gonna need a bigger boat.

    New Orleans was built in a swamp to start with, but it's been so long ago that they forgot the ocean was there first. LOL
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