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Designing my own Rectifier/Regulator

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    #31
    As one that has a bike with this same inherent problem, I'd like to follow this thread. Seems like a really cool project.

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      #32
      heat sink location

      Riding around yesterday I saw an old Yamaha Maxim that had the R/R heat sink mounted not under the battery box as we have it, but on the frame below the right sidecover, where air can get to it. Looked kind of nice with the aluminum fins exposed like that, too.

      I suppose there would be some issues with water dripping on it though, so coneections would need to be well shielded.

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        #33
        Cletus,

        Does this project warrant a "Would You, Did You, Do you" need a rectifier for x-price kinda survey in the "Pole" Section?? Volume pricing on components / labor / case tooling will eventually dictate the price even in kit form correct??

        ghwrenchit

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          #34
          Originally posted by Nerobro
          Suzuki didn't make them. Never have. Shidengen makes them. Suzuki just seems to order parts that are barely adequate.



          How are you doing the voltage regulation? This doesn't seem like a good place to use a ziener diode as you want to have an adjustable output voltage. And are you using a packaged rectifier? or are you specing the diodes on your own?

          The thing that would really rock my socks, (as I use honda r/r's..) is an ignitor unit. Those things are $150+ from suzuki.

          So... with a little resarch on Digikey.. 3phase rectifier. 35 amps.. 36MT20-ND And oh.. a 15v ziener diode to dump excess voltage.. BZG03C15GOSCT-ND *grins* But I know jack about DC voltage regulation.
          Just my $.02 worth...

          You are correct in that Suzuki didn't make them but neither did Shindengen. The R/R's that I have seen come off of Suzukis are all made by Nippon Denso. Honda and some others did it right when they chose Shindengen units. I replaced mine with a Shindengen that came off of a Gold Wing. I paid $5.00 for it on ebay. That put a halt to my research in designing a new unit. There seems to always be plenty of the old bullit-proof Shindengens on ebay. Since replacing the unit I have added 110W worth of driving lights to the old gal. It never drops below 14.5V with everything lit. Do the math.

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            #35
            Originally posted by mixongw
            Just my $.02 worth...

            You are correct in that Suzuki didn't make them but neither did Shindengen. The R/R's that I have seen come off of Suzukis are all made by Nippon Denso. Honda and some others did it right when they chose Shindengen units. I replaced mine with a Shindengen that came off of a Gold Wing. I paid $5.00 for it on ebay. That put a halt to my research in designing a new unit. There seems to always be plenty of the old bullit-proof Shindengens on ebay. Since replacing the unit I have added 110W worth of driving lights to the old gal. It never drops below 14.5V with everything lit. Do the math.
            Same here, ND on an 1150 I tested the other day which is bad, and my bike has an ND.

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              #36
              The problem with retrofits is the question of are we cooking the battery? Having ample amp/wattage output for the toy's is great, but is the unit sensing the load and regulating it? If your producing ~X power and not using it regulated, the battery will absorb it.... to a certain extent, then bubbly out the vent tube I'm thinking.

              ghwrenchit

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                #37
                Originally posted by ghwrenchit
                The problem with retrofits is the question of are we cooking the battery? Having ample amp/wattage output for the toy's is great, but is the unit sensing the load and regulating it? If your producing ~X power and not using it regulated, the battery will absorb it.... to a certain extent, then bubbly out the vent tube I'm thinking.

                ghwrenchit
                I agree with you........ that's why my design will inherently be set to sense the voltage and establish the accepted norm for battery charge regulation 13.6V. Should your particular application requirement be slightly different (insufficient charge or overcharge) there is a user accessible adjustment (fine-tune) allowing one to slightly increase or decrease the charge rate.

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by cberkeley
                  I agree with you........ that's why my design will inherently be set to sense the voltage and establish the accepted norm for battery charge regulation 13.6V. Should your particular application requirement be slightly different (insufficient charge or overcharge) there is a user accessible adjustment (fine-tune) allowing one to slightly increase or decrease the charge rate.
                  Where is the 13.6V "accepted norm" coming from? From my readings on the subject, 13.6V would be on the extreme low end of charging voltage, and is basically a float voltage. Continuous charging at 13.6 volts would tend to stratify the electrolyte and undercharge the battery over time, causing sulphation and loss of battery capacity.

                  None of the R/R specifications for any motorcycle to my knowledge consider 13.6V an acceptable charging voltage. Usually, motorcycle R/Rs will be set for about 14.4 - 14.8V. There is more gassing and consequent water loss at this voltage, but less sulphation. Charging voltages are a compromise to balance side effects of over and undercharging. Overcharging will deplete the electrolyte and corrode the battery plates, eventually causing battery failure.

                  You're the electrical engineer, but I would set the initial charging voltage at 14.4V.

                  You may be interested in this scheme at Increasing Alternator Charge Voltage and Adding a Float Voltage to a Previousy Modifed Alternator
                  to adapt a charging system to emulate a "smart charger" by using the voltage drop across diodes to trick the voltage sensor into reading a lower voltage. A battery can be fully charged to 14.8 - 15.0V and then automatically switched back to the original "float" voltage of 13.6 - 13.8V by disabling the diode circuit. This example is done with an automotive field coil alternator. I don't know if it is adaptable to a PM alternator, but since you are designing a RR from scratch, it seems that this may work with a PM alternator as well. I think that it is a great idea to have a vehicle charging system behave like a 2 stage smart charger, when they are typically very dumb. What are your thoughts on this?

                  Comment


                    #39
                    To answer a previous question (or two)...

                    Yes, I believe all GSs have PM 3-phase charging systems. However, there ARE some differences. Up to about '80 or '81, some were able to turn off the headlight, and, in the process, disabled one leg of the charging system.

                    Do they all use the same R/R? Sort of. It is the same basic design, but some might have higher current ratings than others, and there is the inevitable difference in the connectors.

                    Another thing you might want to address in your design...you have stated you might incorporate a bit of adjustability. Rather than that, just offer two basic models: one that is for flooded-cell batteries that will charge in the low- to mid-14 volt range, and another that charges at about 15 for sealed AGM batteries (frequently mis-labeled as 'gel-cell') that appreciate the higher voltage for a full charge.

                    Looking forward to the finished product as I have two GSs around here. Thanks for your efforts.

                    (do you need a beta tester?)


                    .
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                    hers: 1982 GS850GL - "Angel" and 1969 Suzuki T250 Scrambler
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                      #40
                      cberkley, is your intent to publish the plans? or sell a board and let us hunt down components? Or sell a parts kit?

                      Given I can snag an adequate rectifier, I'd be happy just to get a voltage regulation circut set to 14.5v. Electrolyte be damned, I want a full charge on that battery.

                      I do have a thought though. I haven't determiend the best way of doing it. Why not have a system to switch to a "float level" charge after a certian period of time. Say.. 5 minutes. That would keep the the battery charge voltage at 14.5 high in the city. And high in traffic. And during cruise, it would drop the voltage to a float level to preserve the battery.

                      If you ask me though... if MFG's haven't implemented it yet. It's probally not worth the effort.
                      You'd have to be crazy to be sane in this world -Nero
                      If you love it, let it go. If it comes back....... You probably highsided.
                      1980 GS550E (I swear it's a 550...)
                      1982 GS650E (really, it's a 650)
                      1983 GS550ES (42mpg again)
                      1996 Yamaha WR250 (No, it's not a 4 stroke.)
                      1971 Yamaha LT2 (9 horsepower of FURY.)

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                        #41
                        Don't let us distract you. :-) If you need anything yelp. I'll be watching the thread.
                        You'd have to be crazy to be sane in this world -Nero
                        If you love it, let it go. If it comes back....... You probably highsided.
                        1980 GS550E (I swear it's a 550...)
                        1982 GS650E (really, it's a 650)
                        1983 GS550ES (42mpg again)
                        1996 Yamaha WR250 (No, it's not a 4 stroke.)
                        1971 Yamaha LT2 (9 horsepower of FURY.)

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by Nerobro
                          Don't let us distract you. :-) If you need anything yelp. I'll be watching the thread.
                          I'm not afraid to yell H E L P!.... when necessary. Thanks, I do appreciate all the interest this is generating though.
                          I just hope this Damned thing works[-o<
                          Cletus:-D

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                            #43
                            my vote 14.2v initial setting, just an opinion.
                            De-stinking Penelope http://thegsresources.com/_forum/sho...d.php?t=179245

                            http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...35#post1625535

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                              #44
                              These things to stupidly simple NOT to work. i'm willing to bet the total component count in the R/R's we have is... seven? The old brittish bikes used to use a rectifier and a big ziener diode for their electrical needs. :-) I'll bet the stuff in the plastic under ours isn't any more complex.
                              You'd have to be crazy to be sane in this world -Nero
                              If you love it, let it go. If it comes back....... You probably highsided.
                              1980 GS550E (I swear it's a 550...)
                              1982 GS650E (really, it's a 650)
                              1983 GS550ES (42mpg again)
                              1996 Yamaha WR250 (No, it's not a 4 stroke.)
                              1971 Yamaha LT2 (9 horsepower of FURY.)

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Here's a view of the prototype. It will be fitted to the bike this weekend for dynamic testing.
                                Features:
                                1) Robust, 40-Amperes, 200V Capacity.
                                2) Built-in Filter, may be run with a disconnected battery.
                                3) Adjustable charge rate.
                                4) All three phases regulated.

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