Egine problem on 1000EC

[noobie]

Hello, good people of GS Resources. After being bolstered by a previous project bike being successful me and my father decided to restore a 78 1k.

The bike turned out gorgeous, but even though it's been finished for 2 years it hasn't had more than 1k put on the clock since, because persistent engine and fuel problems just kept robbing out of us the will, motivation and drive to continue bothering with it.

At this point we're both very much regretting ever having heard of it, much less having thrown over 7k into this damn thing. Not to mention all the problems we had just on the way to pick it up (crossing 3 other countries), crowning it with both almost losing our lives on the way back. On hindsight, there were plenty of signs sent down to us from high above, but we didn't listen.

Can't even sell it to get it off our hands, since they're not so popular here in EU.

Anyway, due to some problems with it (the PO abused it so much the cylinders were twisted and malformed, but had now-apparently never been completely fixed), I'm thinking of getting a new engine to hopefully solve the most pressing issues.

There's a grinding noise coming from the lower end, left side (I think). The freaking thing insists on putting blue smoke from the left exhaust even though the engine was taken apart, new piston rings put in (and the freaking things were expensive), everything checked and then put together again (any idea why it would continue to do that?).

The noise is detectable only up to 1600 RPM and if clutch is disengaged. The clutch basket was checked and re-centered, fixed, etc.; and new clutch springs and clutch plates put in. The noise is still there.

Hopefully will have a video of the noise to put up sometime this week.

The petcock seemingly works only on the PRI setting, if I put it on ON or RES, the fuel stops coming and it's a witch to start the bike up again, even if I put on PRI again. Have to run the bike with the PRI setting otherwise it won't even start. Already bought the petcock kit once, but didn't get the right seals in it. Am thinking of just ditching the OEM one and getting some universal, free-fall petcock instead and plugging that vacuum hose shut.

I'd still like to fix this with the least cost required, would be great if anyone had any idea what could be wrong.

Anyway, have been tentatively looking for a new engine for it, but eBay has been completely empty and I don't even know if there's a 1k, except for mine, here at all. Either that or a used engine, but in excellent condition.

Would also like to know whether it's true that 1100 and 1150 engines are simple bolt-ons with no modification required?

Thanks

[Flyboy]

Hi Noobie
Welcome to the forum, here you will find all the GS help you could ever wish for, these guys/ladies have hundreds of thousands of hours of working on these bikes under their belt.
Basscliff should be along shortly to give you his Mega Welcome, packed full of good information.
someone with more know how than i will be along shortly to give you good advise, but in the meantime.
Have you checked your starter clutch for the noise?
As for the smoking, it could be one of a million things, serious or not so much.
Is it oil smoke (blue) or fuel smoke (black)?
I ask because you mention a fuel tap problem, maybe too much fuel.
What do your spark plugs look like? do they burn very black indicating exessive rich mixture or oiled indicating an oil bypass problem?
People here have had mixed success with fuel tap rebuilds, it has worked for some, not so much for others, you actually need to replace the tap to be sure.
if it is fuel smoke, look at replacing your fuel tap, and getting back into your carbs again with a good strip, dip and clean.
If it is oil smoke, well we need to look further down.
We need all the information you can give us.
What do your compression numbers tell you, that is a good starting point, are they all roughly the same or do you have one cylinder a lot lower?
That would point to maybe rings on one of the cylinders that my be at fault, maybe installed incorrctly, up side down, too much ring gap, you get the idea.
If the compression numbers all check out, is it not possible you might have damaged a valve stem seal when installing them, it is possible.
I know that these sound like stupid mistakes and we don't believe we would do that, but it does happen, to all of us.
if the engine was so badly abused as you say, how much stripping and measuring did you do to the components, or was it a case of honing and throwing in a set of rings and gaskets?
Reason I ask is, if the valve guides are worn and shot to hell, all the new valve stem seals in the world won't work to keep the oil in the top side.
Also, if a ring was installed up side down, or the ring gap was too large or the rings not lined up properly on install, they ain't going t keep the oil out of the cylinder, were these things measured before install?
Are you 100% sure that a ring a ring was not broken when putting the cylinders back on? A compression test would point this out, or at least point you in the right direction.

There are a couple of guys out in your neck of the woods, it is a good idea to put your location into your profile in the user control panel, there maybe someone near you who can take a look see.
Also put tour bike type in your signature, so you don't have to keep mentioning what bike it is.

As for motors, I speak under correction, and I am sure someone will help out here, the two valve 1100 should fit straight in, I don't believe the 4 valve 1100 or 1150 is a straight fit, or a fit at all, I thik they may be too tall, the 1150 at least.
Hope this helps, lets get this thing sorted out for you.

Oh, and we like pictures....plenty of them.

[noobie]

Hey, thanks for the greeting!

And especially for the help and info, I'll get right down to it.

Have you checked your starter clutch for the noise?

Is this a common problem? Are the repair kits as usual worthless or any good?

I seem to recall hearing about something on the left side, low end, having teeth broken and that making noise.

One of the things we suspect, but haven't checked yet, is the starter itself.

After the problems we had putting the engine in (very little space compared to our prev. project) we wanted to avoid getting it back out.

What's the best way to get the engine out of the bike? Just tip the bike over and unscrew it?

The last time we took the bike completely apart for restoration so it was easy, now we'll take only the engine out.

As for the smoking, it could be one of a million things, serious or not so much.
Is it oil smoke (blue) or fuel smoke (black)?
I ask because you mention a fuel tap problem, maybe too much fuel.

It's a blue, oil smoke.

What do your spark plugs look like? do they burn very black indicating exessive rich mixture or oiled indicating an oil bypass problem?

Will check, thanks. The last time it refused to start, they were black, but can't remember if oily or just burned, it's been months since then.

People here have had mixed success with fuel tap rebuilds, it has worked for some, not so much for others, you actually need to replace the tap to be sure.

Is it possible to use a universal free-fall tap instead of the vacuum type and just plug the hole of the vacuum hose with something? From what I measure the distance between the attachment screws is 44mm, I could probably get a new free-fall tap for it.

if it is fuel smoke, look at replacing your fuel tap, and getting back into your carbs again with a good strip, dip and clean.
If it is oil smoke, well we need to look further down.
We need all the information you can give us.
What do your compression numbers tell you, that is a good starting point, are they all roughly the same or do you have one cylinder a lot lower?
That would point to maybe rings on one of the cylinders that my be at fault, maybe installed incorrctly, up side down, too much ring gap, you get the idea.

Compression was good and roughly the same last time. Will check it again.

For a while we had a consistent problem of one cylinder not working (headers weren't hot, just slightly warm). When we sorted out one, the next wouldn't work. Last time, all were working.

As said, the bike's been standing for probably a year or so, we just lost the will because the problems it gave us and other RL problems and work that all piled up. And the registration/insurance ran out just a few weeks ago, so that'll be another set of problems.

I'm thinking of getting a professional mechanic to synch the carbs as we seem not to have done a good job (mostly due to never having done it before and partly because I made the mistake of getting the analog syncher instead of the digital Carbtune), that's why I'm beating myself over not doing it before the reg. ran out, since we'll have to get the bike there to him some other way than riding it.

If the compression numbers all check out, is it not possible you might have damaged a valve stem seal when installing them, it is possible.

Will check, thanks.

Are you 100% sure that a ring a ring was not broken when putting the cylinders back on? A compression test would point this out, or at least point you in the right direction.

Won't bet my finger on it since things can happen. The first couple of hours of free time will be spent on re-checking the compression, etc.

As for motors, I speak under correction, and I am sure someone will help out here, the two valve 1100 should fit straight in

Thanks!

Oh, and we like pictures....plenty of them.

Will try to get something.

[John Kat]

If I were you I would not pull the engine out of the frame as most of the potential trouble areas are accessible.
The absolute first thing to get right are the carbs.
I've rebuilt three GS 1000s and I spent more time on the carbs than anything else.
Did you buy the carb repair kits for instance?
If the fuel doesn't flow in the normal open petcock setting, it could be because you connected the vacuum line to the wrong carb?
It should go on carb #3 ( from left to right).
If you pull off the carbs ( a real pain with the air filter) you might aswell take the cylinder head off if you suspect that there is a problem with the valve guides or even the cylinder block if you suspect a broken ring
Coming back to the carbs, the engine will not run correctly if the air filter is not in place complete with it's cartridge.
My advice is take it step by step methodically, else you will go round and round with no result.
It happened to me with my first rebuild but when the engine finally purrs like new the reward is enormous

[BassCliff]

Greetings and Salutations!!

Hi Mr. noobie,

There's a grinding noise coming from the lower end, left side (I think). The freaking thing insists on putting blue smoke from the left exhaust even though the engine was taken apart, new piston rings put in (and the freaking things were expensive), everything checked and then put together again (any idea why it would continue to do that?).

A grinding noise on the left side (by your left foot as you sit on it) could be a loose stator or rotor. Sometimes bolts will come loose inside the stator cover. Were the valve seals replaced when the rings were replaced? The valve seals could be leaking oil into the cylinder.

Anyway, let me dump a TON of information on you and share some GS lovin'.

I just stopped by to welcome you to the forum in my own, special way.

If there's anything you'd like to know about the Suzuki GS model bikes, and most others actually, you've come to the right place. There's a lot of knowledge and experience here in the community. Come on in and let me say "HOoooowwwDY!"....

Here is your very own magical, mystical, mythical, mind-expanding "mega-welcome". Please take notice of the "Top 10 Common Issues", "Top 15 Tips For GS Happiness", the Carb Cleanup Series, and the Stator Papers. All of these tasks must be addressed in order to have a safe, reliable machine. This is what NOT to do: Top 10 Newbie Mistakes. Now let me roll out the welcome mat for you...



Please click here for your mega-welcome, chock full of tips, suggestions, links to vendors, and other information. Then feel free to visit my little BikeCliff website where I've been collecting the wisdom of this generous community. Don't forget, we like pictures! Not you, your bike!

Thanks for joining us. Keep us informed. I will put you on my prayer list.

Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

[noobie]

Thanks for the welcome and help, guys!

Will look deeper into this.

[hampshirehog]

Whereabouts are you? Stick it in your profile. You never know, somebody on here might be living just round the corner and could help.

Smoke is either bores / rings or valve guides / seals or a leaky gasket / cam chain ring. You'll probably have to pull the top end to find out. Which cylinder on the left? 1,2 or both?

No need to take the engine out if you're pulling the top end / starter clutch / clutch. Tip if you do take it out / put it in is to remove the cam cover - it'll give you loads more room.

The 16 valve engines fit but you'll need to mod or change the petrol tank (to a GSX tank) as it catches the cam covers.

Not quite clear about your engine noise - does it alter if you pull the clutch in?

[noobie]

Whereabouts are you? Stick it in your profile. You never know, somebody on here might be living just round the corner and could help.

Smoke is either bores / rings or valve guides / seals or a leaky gasket / cam chain ring. You'll probably have to pull the top end to find out. Which cylinder on the left? 1,2 or both?

No need to take the engine out if you're pulling the top end / starter clutch / clutch. Tip if you do take it out / put it in is to remove the cam cover - it'll give you loads more room.

The 16 valve engines fit but you'll need to mod or change the petrol tank (to a GSX tank) as it catches the cam covers.

Not quite clear about your engine noise - does it alter if you pull the clutch in?

Done.

Not sure which cylinder is the one smoking, haven't had a chance to start the bike [after a year] yet.

Noise dies out when the clutch is engaged or when idling over 1700 RPM.

It sounds like there is a chain inside that's been dragged or is skipping or something like that. But we put in a new cam chain and a new tensioner and I know we put it in correctly.

[hampshirehog]

Done.

Not sure which cylinder is the one smoking, haven't had a chance to start the bike [after a year] yet.

Noise dies out when the clutch is engaged or when idling over 1700 RPM.

It sounds like there is a chain inside that's been dragged or is skipping or something like that. But we put in a new cam chain and I know we put it in correctly.

Don't worry about that noise - I believe the expression is 'they all do that sir'. It's the clutch plate springs. You can cure it. Try a search for clutch noise or rattle - loads of threads on it. Some make a terrible din but last for years so there's no panic.

[noobie]

Don't worry about that noise - I believe the expression is 'they all do that sir'. It's the clutch plate springs. You can cure it. Try a search for clutch noise or rattle - loads of threads on it. Some make a terrible din but last for years so there's no panic.

If only it were so. Got suggested this a while ago, so put in new, stronger springs, and the clutch basket was rebuilt/fixed/reworked/whatever. Helped nothing, noise still there, except to spend money that could've been better used.

The noise comes from the left side, not the right, I went at it with a mechanic stethoscope. As far as I remember (it's been 3+ years), the bike didn't make this noise before we took it apart.

[BassCliff]

Hi,

The noise comes from the left side, not the right, I went at it with a mechanic stethoscope. As far as I remember (it's been 3+ years), the bike didn't make this noise before we took it apart.

Oh, I suppose then that is a little too late to ask if all the parts and tools are accounted for.



Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

[hampshirehog]

My mistake - I said clutch plate springs when I meant to say clutch basket springs - the little damper jobbies on the back. Either that or the centre nut is loose. If you pull te clutch in and the noise disappears it's got to be something to do with the clutch and those are the classic faults. Either that or you boogered somthing in the box when you took it to bits.

[noobie]

Nope, there's definitely no forgotten tool in there, unless one was transported into the engine by Data.

My mistake - I said clutch plate springs when I meant to say clutch basket springs - the little damper jobbies on the back. Either that or the centre nut is loose. If you pull te clutch in and the noise disappears it's got to be something to do with the clutch and those are the classic faults. Either that or you boogered somthing in the box when you took it to bits.

These:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/EBC-verst-Kupplungsfedern-SUZUKI-GSX-550-GN71D-CSK6-/400131202088?pt=Motorrad_Kraftradteile&hash=item5d29ad9c28

[hampshirehog]

Those are the clutch plate springs - useful when your originals get a bit tired and you get clutch slip. Replacing them doesn't stop the noise though

It's the damper springs that get worn and let the basket rattle around. The noise can vary quite a bit from 'a couple of stones in a tin' to a rumble. There's a good photo on here somewhere - do a search and you'll find what I'm on about.

Post #7 in this thread shows them:

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=160396&highlight=clutch+spring+repair

[noobie]

Those are the clutch plate springs - useful when your originals get a bit tired and you get clutch slip. Replacing them doesn't stop the noise though

It's the damper springs that get worn and let the basket rattle around. The noise can vary quite a bit from 'a couple of stones in a tin' to a rumble. There's a good photo on here somewhere - do a search and you'll find what I'm on about.

Post #7 in this thread shows them:
http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...+spring+repair

These bikes are pretty much a money black-hole, aren't they?

Not meaning to offend, but are you sure they can be bought? Cause I looked through the microfiches and there's no mention of them. And the only springs on ebay are the plate springs. Are these even removable?

I think from now on I'm gonna call GS bikes FORD. Or FIAT. They certainly share those stereotypical characteristics... Wish we'd stayed with Honda.