Valve guide job - do I need to do them all?

[john82q]

I wouldnt pull the head

Ola,

bbjumper wrote

You will have the head off to address the valve stem seals,

No , no you dont!

It would appear you only need to change the stem seals.

I did the to my 8valve motor without taking the head off, its not that hard to do. While I havent done a 16 valve head, it could only be easier, and in fact you might get away with not disturbing the cam, but rather just the rockers. you should be able to adapt the technicque.

heres the thread I did for mine

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=188696

Consider doing this as a cheap band aid solution, the seals are cheap, there are nice viton ones on ebay at the moment. it will definately slow considerably (if not eliminate) your oil consumption, you just wont know till you try. Obivously this does nothing to address the rings, or you broken bolts, but you might get a couple more seasons before you need to do the rebuild.

Nothing to loose except some time and $25 worth of seals.


John

[bbjumper]

Ola,

Great scenery, I was bringing an airplane back to the states from Helsinki when I stopped in Bergen, it is beautiful country and a motorcyclists heaven for sure with all of the fjords , I'm jealous.

If you choose to remove the head to do the exhaust studs and seals at over 108 k km on the clock rings could be an issue. Looking at your engine pics it looks like a couple of the cylinders are using oil for sure. Or as John82q pointed out, if you can get to the broken exhaust bolts with out removing the head, just replace the seals and see if that does it.

Keep us posted and send more pics.

Cheers

[Guest]

It's not going to be cheap on my meager budget, the guides are $14 each and I need 16 of them...plus tools for extracting and reaming according to the manual. But a fair point nonetheless, since I'm in there I might as well get my money's worth.

If money is the issue and your bike is rideable, ride it till late November then take advantage of Boulevard Suzuki's cyber sale after Thanksgiving.
They usually offer a hefty discount of new parts. Don't expect to get as good as sale this year as last where some parts were 50% off with free shipping!

[Ola]

Thanks for the comments and encouragement guys. That valve trick is very clever, but I figure I either take the head off and finish that out completely or I dive in deeper and do the rings as well.

Once I have the head off I guess I could spin the crank and inspect the cylinder walls. Will there be telltale signs on them with regards to poor oil rings? Looks like there are some good savings to be had at Boulevard Suzuki. The American version of the bike was a 700 cc at the time, but as far as I can tell the bore was the same.

The next alternative is doing nothing...the exhaust is on, fairly tight and the bike is totally rideable. But I'm planning a trip to the Pyrenees in July and it would increase my comfort level many times to know my problems were sorted.

So a few follow up questions is in order:

Is it difficult to get the old rings off, new ones on with everything on after the cylinders have been removed? How about getting the cylinders back on? I assume I need two tools (minimum) of some kind to clamp on the rings while it slides in.

Will the cylinders definitely need to be honed or is that a judgement call? There is a great machine shop in the neighborhood, they should be able to do it. Is it a quick simple job for pros?

Some more pics, for my motivation as much as anyone's!

[Guest]

After looking at your exhaust ports, you do have a couple issues, oil and carbs maybe oil rings as well. When was the last time your carbs have been worked on and sync? The last pic shows to be a bit lean and the others are way too black with lots of carbon built up on them. One valve show a little oil on the stem. Since you are going to have your head off, there is no better time then now to freshen your motor up.

[bbjumper]

Ola,

You won't be able to check out the oil rings until the cylinders have been removed, if there is damage to the cylinders it will be readily apparent by looking down the bore. It is possible to remove the head without breaking the seal on the base gasket but not probable. Putting the head back on without a new base gasket is taking a chance, besides the only thing worse than doing this job is having to do it twice to fix something like a leaking base gasket.

Boulivard is great anytime and good prices, during there sale they are fantastic, I have had good luck and get great customer service.

As far as the now or later thing, I got that, that's why I did this type of work to my GS in February, I have a trip planned for Yellowstone in August with MiloBramble and I wanted everything ready for the long haul.

This is not difficult but read the book and take your time. Putting the cylinders on works better when you have help. Ring compressors are helpful but it can be done without them. I used two small slotted screwdrivers, one straight and I bent the tip on the other so it acted like a paddle. Oh yea did I mention take your time, when I did this I got in a hurry and ended up breaking a ring. I had about ten days to think about it waiting on a replacement.

New rings will not seat on a cylinder that hasn't been honed and yes, a good shop when they have all the necessary parts can knock this out in a couple of days.

Personally I enjoyed it when I did this, I learned a tremendous amount about my bike, and have the satisfaction of knowing that it is in the best mechanical condition that I can make it. Besides, this is great man cave stuff, turn on the stereo, a few cold beers, your GF is awed over your mechanical prowess, your buddies are over, life is good.

Keep us updated.

Cheers

[tatu]

Hi Ola,
As you're taking the head off anyway just get the machine shop to do the guides, take a lick off the seats with a cutter, grind them back in, a quick hone, stick in new rings because all will be disturbed, ride the snot out'v it for the first 100 miles (160kms) change the oil and ride normally, you will have a perfect motor then. You are clearly someone who likes it spot on, so just do it and remove the back of the mind niggle and sit back to fully enjoy your spectacular country and I might add superb roads. To be honest I'm with Tom, unlikely that you need to do it with those few meagre miles.

Bergan,, long time since I was there, cannot remember the number of times I've rolled out'v your taverns sloshing with beer, (sheesh its expensive there!!) is the Polar bear bar still there, Piano bar? to name but a couple. There used to be a burger shop on the way back to the dock that flogged the best burgers in the world with 1000 island dressing that I always made sure I had enough money left to get on the stagger back to the boat. In really bad weather we used to take the train up to Voss, I learned to ski there.

[Ola]

Oh lord, what am I getting myself into? First thing, I don't have a proper garage of my own, I have to use the dirt floored one at my mother's - when the weather is good enough that she'll be happy parking her rusting Merc outside. Second, since she lives an hours drive outside the city (southern end of Sotra island, not too far from Marstein lighthouse if you've navigated around here by sea, about 5 nm SW off the threshold of ENBR RWY 35 if by air) so getting there on work days is a chore. But from now until early June, so I have time to break it in, it can be done.

So going through the options again:

1) Do nothing, ride to Spain, fingers crossed
2) Pull the head, get the machine shop to do the bolts, change the valve guide oil seals
3) The whole nine yards, piston rings, valve guides, oil seals, have machine shop do bolts and valve seats.

While 1) is possible, 2) seems the most doable. 3) is daunting to say the least, will be expensive as well. Ordering from the states will be much cheaper, but I will likely be getting GS700 parts. As far as I know, only the cylinders and piston rods are different, the rest is the same. Can anyone confirm that?

And it's best to get the full gasket set instead of individual ones right? (Couldn't find it at Boulevard Suzuki.) Apart from that it seems I am looking at:

1. Four sets of piston rings
2. 16 valve guides
3. 16 oil seals
4. Helicoils, studs and cap nuts for the exhaust.
5. Tools.
6. Anything else?

Ring compressors and piston ring tool is locally sourced and cheap. Do I need Suzukis special tools for the valve guides? The manual lists a puller tool and a reamer. And what about moly paste or liquid gasket, best to go with OEM?

First job is to get my bike out there and start stripping it. It's in a shed (which I can't work in) outside my house and the front tire is leaking, might be bad enough that I have to change it first. No big deal in itself. But once there, I'll get the head off, take some pictures and post a project thread. I'll make sure I get lots of pics however it ends up, something which has helped me a lot in the past is an easily searchable, illustrated writeup on a forum. The time waiting on parts can be well spent decarbonizing the head.

Whew! Allright. A plan and some direction. And lots of excellent help already, thanks guys!

Tatu, were you in the Navy? Cool that you have staggered around in the streets where I stagger around at present. I don't think there's a bar called polar bear something, they do change names and owners quite often, but I fully and wholly empathize with the experience! I think I will have to go out and empathize about a gallon's worth tonight, to ease my piston ring nerves...


edit: I did a carb sync in 2010 which went well, but I do have some fuelling issues. It bogs at full throttle in the mid range, otherwise fine and smooth but the mix might be off as you can see. Have colortune and carb sync tool.

[bbjumper]

Ola,

Don't have any experience with your scoot but I'm sure someone on the forum does regarding the differences between yours and the 700. It might be worth a call to Boulevard to help clear that up also.

You won't need the full gasket set, once it is broken down you will be able to put together a full parts list of what you will need in addition to gaskets, it is generally accepted that OEM gaskets, seals and such are the way to go.

The machine shop if they have experience with these and air cooled four cylinder bikes in general will have the tools necessary to deal with the head in addition to getting everything cleaned up and checking the condition of everything. Honda Molly 60 grease is what I used on the cam when I put it back together, I wouldn't use liquid gasket on any of the mating surfaces except for those areas that call for it in the service manual if any.

Yes on the pictures, it gives everyone here on the forum a clear idea of what your up to and an opportunity to offer help with problems you come across.

The guys here have a true fondness for all GS's and are interested in keeping them on the road. Once you are done and have the carbs sorted out you'll be able to ride it another 108k.

Have fun

[tatu]

If you're working to a budget then leave the rings, I doubt there's anything wrong with them, you mentioned the compression's fine, I would tug the head and be careful not to disturb the cylinders. I doubt the guides are bad either, the machine shop will tell you. just do the seals and threads and grind the valves for good measure.
I know its different to what I said before, but if time and money are factors.
Depending on the machine shop (for threads) you will do the job easy in less than a day, and you don't need a heap'v space just need to get round the bike, I did my old 1000s on a narrow pathway in a terraced house in London when I popped a piston. The only tools I had were the ones in the tool pack and a very cheap socket set a old curious guy lent me who happened by. Thinking about it, you will need: a socket set mainly: 10mm
: 12mm
: 14mm
: 17mm
: 19mm
: extension bar, ratchet.
: a peice of wire or string (to tie the cam chain)
: number 2 cross head screwdriver
: 10 mm open ended or combined spanner
: 12 "
: 14 "
: 17 "
: 19 " Check this as it is to turn the crank by hand and it might be different on your bike. I doubt it though.
: a stout pair of pliers or the water pump kind, these are to grip the old seal and pull, they are tenatious buggers so you have to show determination.
: a valve spring compressor or a peice of wood to support the vlv as you push on the spring retainer and a mate to wiggle the collets
: a small flat screwdriver to wiggle the collets
: a small mallet to seat the collets
: an indeleble marker
: grinding paste
: vlv grinding stick
: moly slip grease, this is to lube the cams for initial start. ordinary grease with a squirt of oil does the same as it only has to hold there for a few seconds
: some solvent/petrol/rinsing agent to remove any grinding paste.
: torque wrench, Check the torques.
Spares you will need are: cam cover gasket,
: Head gasket
: standby base
: 16 vlv seals
: some clean rags and I would add industrial paper
: feeler gauges and is it 6 or 8mm spanner for the adjuster lock nut.
: a screwdriver to turn the adjuster.
Really try not to disturb the base or tear the cam gasket as it is long and tedious task to clean and can stall the whole job.
Don't forget to align the crank/cams before stripping and mark things if you feel that you would remember it better that way.
To take apart 35 minutes, maybe 45 if you're very slow.

I think thats about it, can anybody else think of anything else he'll need?
Its a breeze you will have no problems and people here will help you if you get stuck.

I forgot to add, Robbo's will also have everything you need in the way of parts too, just an option as they are closer. http://www.robinsonsfoundry.co.uk/

[tatu]

You will also need the O'rings fot the cam chain tunnel and oil feeds + stand by for the base if you disturb it.

[koolaid_kid]

Personally, I would get the full engine gasket set. It will include the top end gasket set which should include all the o-rings you need as well as the valve stem seals. You may need the bottom end gasket set if you need to replace the stator or work on the clutch.
I tried using aftermarket valve cover gaskets and had two fail on me in a row, one on a rally and one just riding down the street. Went OEM and no more issues.

[tkent02]

Oh lord, what am I getting myself into? First thing, I don't have a proper garage of my own, I have to use the dirt floored one at my mother's - when the weather is good enough that she'll be happy parking her rusting Merc outside.
1) Do nothing, ride to Spain, fingers crossed

1) Do nothing, ride to Spain. Or South Africa.
No brainer.
They sell oil in Spain.
Working on engines outdoors or in the dirt is never a good idea.
Just ride it. Crossing fingers is a waste of effort.
A lot of new bikes burn a liter in 1000 miles, in fact that is the standard for a brand new BMW. It just doesn't matter unless you let it run dry.

[gearhead13]

I have a full set (16) nos valve guides part # 11115-49290 that you could have for less than half what they want online.
pm me

[tatu]

1) Do nothing, ride to Spain. Or South Africa.
No brainer.
They sell oil in Spain.
Working on engines outdoors or in the dirt is never a good idea.
Just ride it. Crossing fingers is a waste of effort.
A lot of new bikes burn a liter in 1000 miles, in fact that is the standard for a brand new BMW. It just doesn't matter unless you let it run dry.

I would agree with you Tom but he's got the problem with the exhaust studs and certainly one'v them is in a bad spot to do it in situ.