Engine Paint - PJ1, VHT, or POR 15?

[psyguy]

i've been in touch with the PPG tech guys here in new zealand some time ago, and this was their response (and my email below).


The coating system to use is 719 polyetch primer followed by 579 Caprithane as a finish coat.
Technical data sheets are attached. Phone 09 573 1620 for pricing and availability,


From:
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 4:17 PM
To: (Mail) PMCNZ Customer Svc (AUK) [X]
Subject: Aluminium engine - what paint?

Hi
I am wondering what product you would recommend for painting (and prep) of an aluminium (internal combustion) engine on a motorbike. The engine is air cooled and exposed to elements.

_____________________________________________

Edit: Unfortunately the data sheets suggest that the paint is resistant to 110deg celsius only so i'm not sure that i'd fwork that well on the cylinders/head.

[psyguy]

data sheets

ENAMEL
Caprithane is a two pack acrylic polyurethane spraying
enamel, with the following features:

·

Fast drying

·

Hard, high gloss finish.

·

Excellent exterior durability, highly resistant to
yellowing and chalking.

·

Good UV resistance – contains UV absorbers.

·

Resistant to a wide range of chemicals and cleaning
agents:
5% Aqueous Sodium Hydroxide – no effect
5% Aqueous Hydrochloric Acid – slight gloss loss,
no softening.

·

Excellent abrasion resistance.

·

Excellent heat resistance: 110oC continuous, 130oC
intermittent.

The hardener is based on aliphatic polyisocyanate.


PRIMER

719 Polyetch is a top of the range, two-pack, anticorrosive
self-etching primer. It is based on vinyl /
butyral / phenolic resins and zinc tetroxy-chromate
pigment.
The catalyst contains phosphoric acid.

Uses

Gives excellent adhesion to galvanised steel and nonferrous
metals. Gives extra protection to ferrous metals
when used as the first primer coat.
Spray apply 70-100 microns Wet Film Thickness to
achieve 7-10 microns Dry Film Thickness.
Must be overcoated the same day – no sanding.
Allow >1 hour before overcoating with epoxies, >20
minutes for other coatings.
Must use intermediate primer when overcoating with
single pack topcoats and 978:
238: 295/600/610
632: 262
CC22: 978
2K Polyurethanes may overcoat direct onto 719, or use
intermediate primer.
178: 279,579

Colour Availability

Yellow, Black

[Shin-Ken 1074]

Hi psyguy, no pics on my screen, pity. Thanks for the advice on clearcoating the block and the details regarding the product from PPG NZ. The frustration of owners trying to finding an engine paint to match the original colour and performance and how some of the current paint products fail to measure up is a mystery. I know the original engine paint is no longer available from Suzuki (it was for many years) but, you'd have to think there is an engine paint manufacturer out there somewhere that still makes a product that bike manufacturers use? Not all bikes have colour base painted engines so maybe there is a chance to track an aluminium engine paint down through some other OEM source like another auto engine maker, boat engine supplier, aircraft industry? O.K. maybe the outter casing product applied to things like a G.E. F404 axial turbine out of an F/A-18 might be a tad expensive for most of us but apart from that example there must be something we can use thats within reason?

[psyguy]

...bloody 'puters... how's this?

[psyguy]

i think that back in the day suzuki used the paint on engines for cosmetical purpose, to stop immediate corosion until the bikes got sold, rather than as a durable lasting finish.
i *think* only the lower case were painted, not the cylinders/head.
these days most engine parts are powdercoated or anodised or chromed or surfaced with high tech coatings such as HPC http://www.hpcoatings.co.nz/
so, there are ways to do it but the're not cheap...

[pete]

That pic worked psyguy.

And yeah, going by how my engine looks, I don't think the paint was intended to last for years and years, which is why I'm stripping it all off and painting it

[Agemax]

i've researched this topic before but never got a satisfying conclusive info for a paint that would not yellow/brown and would be durable enough to take on the daily road grime and regular washing.

on the engine covers i used por15 clear (glisten pc and all the prep products) and while the clear holds on well the alu covers have changed apperance in the same way they would have if left exposed to elements (they appear coroded underneath the clear...).

what i figured would last the longest on the engine would be to have the cases, jugs, head, bead blasted and left at that. when washing you can use a "metal brightener" to restore the shine. If done properly bead blasting "closes" the alu surface nicely so the dirt doesn't stick that well in the first place.

i *think* the problem with all the paints mentioned in this thread (correct me if i'm wrong!) is that neither is made for application straight on ALUMINIUM and some dont mention alu as a suitable base at all. and if you use a primer, well, there's no primer that can take the heat that the air cooled engine produces, at least at the spark-plugs area, so that's not that much help.
por15 metal prep and a brush on etch-primer liquid (called AP120 or something) is i would think the best priming method as it is not like a paint but like a solvent/cleaner that evaporates upon application so cant really burn from the engine heat (sorry for the lack of proper technical terms... )

sharpy's engine looks VERY sharp but i understand (from memory) that he lives in a dry climate and that that engine doesn't get much (if any?) wet road grime that bakes on the engine nor does he need to use pressure-washer or brush needed to take such grime off. as i said... if memory serves me right when i talked to sharpy about it

i had my engine vapour blasted, it includes a rust inhibitor which bonds to the aluminium cases. no flake, no discolour, no oxidisation in 5 years!
just a good wash in hot soapy water every couple of weeks and it looks perfect again.
best finish i have ever had done on an engine

[psyguy]

lol, agemax, you know you cant do that... tease us with a story and NO pic!

pretty please?

[Agemax]

lol, agemax, you know you cant do that... tease us with a story and NO pic!

pretty please?

ok, lol. best close up pic of the engine i could find at the moment........

[Steptoe]

vapour blasting

Hi,
My first post, having not yet taken delivery of a recently purchased GS1000.

Had a GS 30 years ago and have been into mostly british recently, but getting back to a REAL bike.

Vapour blasting is great. Gives a really nice even, not overly bright finish. I have used it on my everyday (rain and all) bike (brand will remain nameless) and it has worked perfectly. As already stated, wash and forget. I have polished covers and they're a right PITA. Dont last a week without oxidising, although the Meguiars I've been using lately seems to help. (Seems like this post has also answered my questions there too). The vapour blasted cases have not discoloured at all. The guy to do the vapour blasting in Brisbane is called Specialised Blasting Services I think and has apparently moved from Capalaba down to Mt Tambourine or somewhere. He used to advertise in Just Bikes. Great finish for wheel hubs and all ali bits you dont want to polish because it doesnt oxidise unlike raw aluminium finished in may other ways.

Vapour blasting (as opposed to some other forms of media blasting) closes the pores and no dirt (and solvents apparently) penetrate. I have been thinking about this issue of case finishing even before I get my GS in the shed. I figured I would vapour blast the barrels and head and use paint on the cases. That was my best recollection of what my GS was like when I had it, but seems like all over paint was correct (clearly too much intake of jungle juice in those days).

I have used a H-D product - high temp silver to good effect. Bought it because it is a very good match (almost perfect) for early Kawasaki silver case paint and I had some engine covers to do. Must be painted directly onto bare metal! ie, no promer problems. Nice bright finish. Cant find the maximum temp for it though. It's pricey, $34 AUD a can and I got it from Morgan and Wacker in Brisbane (near the Brekky Ck Hotel) on special order. They only keep 1 or 2 cans. I looked around at all the alternatives and didnt find anything I was happy with OR that would be fuel resistant.

Great post because this case paint issue has been an ongoing one for me over the last 3-4 years.

Sorry just remebered the original post was about black paint, but this might be useful anyway.


Cheers

[pete]

Thanks Agemax and Steptoe, that's good info.

While I was hoping for black head and cases and polished covers, all this talk about hassle free vapour blasting is making me think again, especially after seeing the pic from Agemax.

I was wondering if this was a US only thing, but good to see there's someone near Brissie who can do it too, might have a think and maybe give them a call to see what it's worth.

It would certainly solve some issues for me because I'm having trouble finding some way to bake the cases and head after the high heat paint is on. Almost got a $20 oven off eBay that plugs into a standard power point for the garage, but just missed it.

[pete]

Here's the place, and in Jimboomba now. Interestingly enough he says it's not vapour blasting because that leaves bits of glass embedded in the alloy. Lots of good looking pic's here though and apparently not even oil will stain the cases afterwards...

http://www.freewebs.com/blasting/

[TheCafeKid]

I painted a cylinder head with VHT Aluminum High Temperature paint last night. It sprays out nicely and looks good, although the color of the stock engine is more silver and brighter.

I have used quite a few of the different "over the counter" brands of high temp paint... MY fav?? Duplicolour.. VHT is nice, but their colours arent exactly what they say they should be IMO...aluminum doesnt look aluminium, it looks silver. Duplicolour offers a FEW aluminums...raw, clean, etc. Their black is what I used on my 1100ES motor, STILL looks like new.. The trick is, polish your covers with car wax Keeps the grime from sticking, and makes them look like brand new...

The ONLY problem i have found with most of the rattle bomb high temps, is that most are ceramic based (which is why they can handle the heat) and while quite durrable and gas resistant, they are BRITTLE...if you drop a wrench on it when its a cold motor, it will chip like a son of a gun.. so keep that in mind... I will see if i can dig up a good pic of my ES motor after its paint job..

[Steptoe]

vapour blasting

Hi Pete,

In fact you are probabaly right about the term 'vapour blasting' (my bad) the guy in question uses a Vacqua machine as far as I know and I'm guessing I used the wrong term. The media (I thought it was glass beads but could be wrong) is blasted in AIUI a stream of water - very gentle. Anyway whatever he does works well. All the the go in Brit Bike circles for the main engine cases etc. I have dribbly amals and the evaporated fuel that ennds up on the cases just disappears whenever I wash the bike. For stubborn stuff like a bit of burnt on oil (no my pommy bike would not leak oil!!) a bit of a quick spray with degreaser does the trick.

Cheers

[psyguy]

I was wondering if this was a US only thing, but good to see there's someone near Brissie who can do it too, might have a think and maybe give them a call to see what it's worth.

mate, if i was able to find someone in NZ who does it surely it's available in Oz, eh?

lol

from what i've read (and this is getting really nitty gritty) varoius media can be used for blasting and the trick is to use the right one for the aplication.
apparently there is a difference in the alu alloy used on the brit vs italian vs german vs jap bikes (at least there was 30 yrs ago) so the same process can give different results.
other than the type of media used there can be a variation in the water/air pressure used and also the quantity of the media.
i think best go to someone who's done it before and done it right on a bike similar to yours (i.e. jap bike from the era).

it cost something like nz$300 for the whole engine minus the side covers. the engine was REALLY dirty.