GS Charging CONTEST

[posplayr]

Continued from previous




Boy this got long, but ... In Conclusion:

I have demonstrated that my description is correct, according to the theory as shown in the Suzuki manual and your scope traces.

And since I was the only one to describe the actual operation of the R/R system accurately, correctly, and to such a level of detail, showing important features not even hinted at by anyone else;
I believe you owe me a shiny new (used) regulator.
(Sorry Rusty Bronco)


If you disagree with any point, I'll be more than happy to discuss any further points of contention.


Take it to your EE buddies at work, see what they say.


Further, I actively invite comments and especially questions from any of the other bystanders in the forum:
This was supposed to be an educational contest, and we learn by asking.


By the way, this contest has been one of the most interesting series of posts in a while, thanks for running it.


I am greatly looking forward to your reply.

The spikey plot that you circled is of the stator AC side not the output side(I thought I had explained that at least twice before). If you just go back and look at your proposed #7 it doesn't have 10 amps coming out of the R/R as was shown in the figure below and so it doesn't represent the actual operation nor is it balanced with the normal 10 amp output.

Here is the same thing (idling) but looking at the total current coming from the R/R. You get about 10Amps, the RR is not regulating and so you only see the harmonics associated with a 3 phase full wave rectifier. The label says 2 ADC but that is wrong. The scale is 5 amps per major division.



The charging current moving from the R/R to the battery is basically the same but can be adjusted up and down (positive and negative) by the idle speed; it is near zero and I could only get it up to 2 amps at 3K RPM.

[bakalorz]

I never said there was no current coming from the R/R or crossing the cut set. I posted that there is no shunting current crossing the cut set.

So where is the current coming from, the only possible source is the stator windings ... the OEM R/R as shown here leaves one unshunted winding. when it is lower than either of the other two, it gets pulled to ground.
So 1/3 of the cycles, the R/R can't shunt because this winding is highest,
but the other 2/3 of the cycles there is NO SOURCE OF CURRENT because all possible windings are shunted and near ground. In those cases, what source of current to cross the cut set exists.

The situation is even more apparent for honda and FET R/Rs, because they shunt ALL the windings. what is the source of any current from the R/R to cross the cut set

I also posted a plot of output current from the R/R(+) RED output that shows there is 10 amp output maintained at 3000 RPM. I'll stop here.

I addressed that in the continued part of my post ... in brief you accidentally used an idle trace, not the 3000 rpm one ... the 3000 rpm one shows a VERY different story, with obvious negative current spikes

[posplayr]

bakalorz,
OK i was not about to go back an measure anything new, so I went back to find the plots I generated last year. Low and behold this is what I found.


This shows the current coming out of the R/R(+) RED at Idle WHEN THERE IS NO REGULATION. It is basically DC with some AC ripple due to the imperfect 3 phase rectification process.



After increasing the RPM, the R/R starts to regulate by shunting current back to the stator windings. When this happens the current coming from the R/R(+) RED is still averaging 10 amps but there are periods when the R/R is shunting that the current (from the R/R(+) )goes to zero. You could only see this is you have $4500 scope with an instantaneous current measurement like I have.



When the R/R is shunting and blocking the current, the Battery takes up the slack by providing the current to the system. So you can see the negative spikes occurring where there is approximately -10 amps. That is when the battery is providing the 10 amps. Regardless the average current into the battery is still +2 DC amps because it is charging.





So you are correct in your assessment that the GS charging system is alternating between #5 and #7 in an AC sense(as bore out by these plots), but in a DC sense the average currents are as shown in #5 .Case #5 represents the nominal case of interest and was the answer being sought. I was not expecting anybody to do a SPICE analysis to answer the question.

So while you did an excellent job of predicting the results of an AC analysis, RustyBronco came up with the first correct answer for a DC analysis which is all that was expected and so he is the winner (and there is only one Honda R/R). Unfortunately more better later doesn't supercede the earlier entry.

Good work, I forgot about those other plots and in recollection and re-reading the post thought that figure was for the Stator side. The names of the files made it clear what was being measured.

Jim