They Dont call it "Sparks and Magic" for Nuttn

[TheCafeKid]

When you speak about the bike now running cooler, I'm assuming you are going by the temp gauge, which is indicating the oil temp. By cooling the stator via additional flow, the heat is being exchanged and absorbed by the oil.....the only way (as I see it) to achieve a cooler oil temp is to increase the oil-cooler capacity/efficiency where it is cooled by forced convection, or to reduce heat at the source (the engine). With no other mods except adding a line to bathe the stator, I'm curious as to the reason for a 50 degree drop in temps.
Also not understanding your statement that adding a cooler might not actually help cooling, without also adding a top-end oiler......regardless of stock or high-vol gears used, simply adding a heat-exchanger in the oil path loop should & will achieve reduced temps, provided the bike is moving, no?

As for the dyno 10 hp experiment, two runs, with the stator connected & disconnected might reveal the actual hp difference even with stock RR....I think the difference may be a couple hp, 10 would be great!

wow look at Tony busting out the knowlege! Love it

Something interesting that I noticed on our recent trip we were riding the slab, running about 5K, just cruising. It was brutal hot and humid around 87-90 degreesF. With the cooler my indicated temp was rght at the operating temp mark. In fact I have rarely ever seen it higher. Only sittin in traffic or after long stretches of rowing through the twisties in low gears and high RPMs. At any rate we ran through a stretch where it had at sometime previously stormed but by now the only tell was the wet road. It had obviously poured recently but the sun was back out and the humidity was high. Temp gauge, which was resting on the OT mark, once sprayed with the water from the road surface shot down 50% in a matter of seconds. Now I'm sure some of the water hitting the cases brought the temp down but to me for it to happen that fast the, the cooler had to be the biggest player with it's ability to cool on it's own plus the further cooling effect of the water spray. What would be neat to develop would be a little spray controller to give the cooler a blast of water mist in the event youre stuck in traffic or for you guys out west or southwest where the temps get worse.

[TheCafeKid]

Jimmy I am a little concerned that you keep stating you're pegging that pressure gauge. I have run pressure gauge on various displacement GS motors and when cold would see pressure that high but never when warm even at HIGH RpM. Now I haven't run one on high volume gears in the pump but I wouldn't think it would increase pressure THAT much would it? It's simply increasing speed of flow, not pressure (or should be only doing that right?)

[Dogma]

Josh, you can only stuff so much fluid through a hole per second. The resistance to flow increases pretty rapidly with volumetric flow rate, depending on the fluid viscosity, making higher pressure at the pump. The pump is a constant volume design, which means that it pumps the same volume per revolution (Assuming it's not turning so fast as to suck air or some other engine destroying misbehavior). The cold oil is more viscous, so it requires more pressure to stuff that volume through the passages. That's why pressure drops as the engine warms.

Shoving all that fluid through a hole (or oiling system) stirs the oil something fierce, heating it more than the engine's heat alone would. High flow pump gears alone will do this, raising the oil temp, even though more oil is getting to various parts of the engine. So, the oil cooler would be a good match for the high flow gears.

Providing another outlet for the pump to shove oil through (to the stator) is basically pushing the fluid through a larger hole, making the flow easier, reducing the heating of the oil.

Adding a cooler can increase pressure because longer holes have the same effect as smaller holes. So, pushing the oil through the lines and cooler will also tend to heat the oil. The cooler has to work well enough to overcome this additional heat load to be effective.

So, um, don't put the high flow pump gears in without considering the extra heat load. One could theoretically use a dump path with a tuned orifice to limit the extra flow's tendency to raise oil pressure. This is probably what the stator cooler is doing to lower the oil temp. The trick would seem to be making sure that there is still enough oil going to the head. A pressure gage at the top end would seem to be in order for that task, and some reverse engineering to figure out what pressure the cam bearings need to work. Too mutch pressure at the bearings just heats the oil and breaks it down faster. Too little oil has obvious consequences. I think I'd probably just want to see pressure at the top end similar to stock pressure at the pump, and call that good. Never mind the reverse engineering.

All that heating of oil is also work done by the engine, so unnecessary flow and heating is also decreasing output by maybe a few HP. Dumping excess flow over the stator might relieve that power loss.

[posplayr]

Josh, you can only stuff so much fluid through a hole per second. The resistance to flow increases pretty rapidly with volumetric flow rate, depending on the fluid viscosity, making higher pressure at the pump. The pump is a constant volume design, which means that it pumps the same volume per revolution (Assuming it's not turning so fast as to suck air or some other engine destroying misbehavior). The cold oil is more viscous, so it requires more pressure to stuff that volume through the passages. That's why pressure drops as the engine warms.

Shoving all that fluid through a hole (or oiling system) stirs the oil something fierce, heating it more than the engine's heat alone would. High flow pump gears alone will do this, raising the oil temp, even though more oil is getting to various parts of the engine. So, the oil cooler would be a good match for the high flow gears.

Providing another outlet for the pump to shove oil through (to the stator) is basically pushing the fluid through a larger hole, making the flow easier, reducing the heating of the oil.

Adding a cooler can increase pressure because longer holes have the same effect as smaller holes. So, pushing the oil through the lines and cooler will also tend to heat the oil. The cooler has to work well enough to overcome this additional heat load to be effective.

So, um, don't put the high flow pump gears in without considering the extra heat load. One could theoretically use a dump path with a tuned orifice to limit the extra flow's tendency to raise oil pressure. This is probably what the stator cooler is doing to lower the oil temp. The trick would seem to be making sure that there is still enough oil going to the head. A pressure gage at the top end would seem to be in order for that task, and some reverse engineering to figure out what pressure the cam bearings need to work. Too mutch pressure at the bearings just heats the oil and breaks it down faster. Too little oil has obvious consequences. I think I'd probably just want to see pressure at the top end similar to stock pressure at the pump, and call that good. Never mind the reverse engineering.

All that heating of oil is also work done by the engine, so unnecessary flow and heating is also decreasing output by maybe a few HP. Dumping excess flow over the stator might relieve that power loss.

That pretty much sums it; The stator is cooler but not so much to account for the entire drop in temperature. I'm not sure I need head pressure because I still have 2-2.5 times as much as stock at the rear where it is normally measured.

As Ed says to measure is to know, I have ambient temp (both inside and out with my show chrom), oil temp and pressure as measured at the rear distribution plate. The sense locations have not changed other than going to Greg's version.

[posplayr]

Wait a minute, put your portable drills back in to your holsters......



There is an update to this story.......




L8ter

[Greg B]

wait a minute, put your portable drills back in to your holsters......



There is an update to this story.......




l8ter

well??????????

[posplayr]

well??????????

oil leak was the starter cavity which filled up. I PLUGGED THE DRAIN HOLE to elimiate that as a cause. So, I'm figuring with all that oil flying under the cover it is directly hitting the starter o-ring

[posplayr]

OK I think I solved the problems. I had put in an over sized O-ring from my HF metric O-ring kit and if you are not careful and use plenty of grease it will rip and then leak.

The HF Metric kit has a 24.75x3.3mm o-ring (actual dimensions) v.s. the stock which calls for 24.5x3mm.

I pulled the carbs back and used a tie strap to keep them out of the way while I worked on the starter. I also pulled the stator cover so I could use "Ultra Black" to seal the nose of the starter where the O-ring is partially exposed.

Make sure you push the starter in straight, if it is cocked you can easily cut the o-ring. Also watch out to not gouge the sealing surface in the cases with the end gear. Also if you push it too far through the O-ring will push out the other side and then there is another opportunity to cut it.

I cleaned it really good, and made a nice ring all around so even if it were to come off it would remain a Ring on the starter gear.

After riding to Kris V's last weekend to see Bill start his 1229, I experienced much cooler temperatures (210 and below) and my stator is no worse than what it was before. Apparently the sprayer is keeping it cooler. I'm using 4AN line with 1/8" NPT fittings. There is a restrictor which is about 0.090" (approx).

Bottom line this seems to be very effective at keep the stator cool. If you are not going to get a SERIES R/R, then I would certainly recommend this. Just based on the pressure drop with the Hi Po gears I would also do it.

You can see the sprayer; the end has been ground off a little to insure it clears the rotor.




I got new Teflon coated lines from Paragon (made to fit). Three lines cost me about $35 shipped but they are made to order.


Here is the layout from Greg's distribution block. I only had to add the one top hole for the oiler T.

[Guest]

Let's take bets on where it will leak next.

[ryonker]

I know some think it isn't worth it, but this seems to be another good reason for putting an oil cooler on the bike. I know my 79 runs quite a bit cooler; when I stop I can feel the heat pouring off of my cooler .

Rick

[posplayr]

I know some think it isn't worth it, but this seems to be another good reason for putting an oil cooler on the bike. I know my 79 runs quite a bit cooler; when I stop I can feel the heat pouring off of my cooler .

Rick

actually spraying the stator will likely reduce the heat more than the cooler and substantially improve the longevity of it as well.

[posplayr]

I pulled my pluggs and they looked pretty rich. Turns out mine were 145 Mikuni and not 147.5 like I thought. Also the DJ needles were already at 3 1/2 from the bottom. Bill an I moved them all to 4 1/2 from the bottom and the things still runs well. Will probably pick up some 142.5's and try and drop down on the outers depending on how it looks.

Seems I have richened up since my temperature has dropped so much from the sprayer and serier R/R. Temp gauge never gets over 210 degF and around here it is usually closer to 180-190 degF MAX.

Also I did not completely drain the oil but still had a 1/2-3/4 quart in when I pulled the stator. I topped it back off and we did about a 20 mile quick ride. OIL STILL LOOKS LIKE HONEY.

All of the left side oil leaks are fixed.

[Guest]

Does the 1166 really run that much hotter than stock? I don't think I have ever seen my GS run over 210 while moving, even at highway speeds in the dead of a SC summer (READ: 100*, 100% humidity)

[posplayr]

Does the 1166 really run that much hotter than stock? I don't think I have ever seen my GS run over 210 while moving, even at highway speeds in the dead of a SC summer (READ: 100*, 100% humidity)

Seem in CA the EZ/ED 1100 temp gauges usually run level (9 Oclock) or higher. 210 is at the 8 O clock. Regardless, Mine dropped about 50 degrees according to the gauge.