Why Do We Need A Battery

[tkent02]

I know they use big NiCads on airplanes just fine, jets, piston poppers, and turboprops. Some of the turboprops will completely drain the NiCad in about three start attempts, they get fully recharged in a minute or two once one engine is running, so if it is done correctly in a properly designed system NiCads can work. These batteries last many years. The trick will be getting the bike's system to act like it was designed correctly.
The little RC NiCads are 1.2 volts per cell, ten of them in series would make a 12 volt battery pack. Eleven of them would be 13.2 volts, closer to what the charging system runs at, would this work better than ten of them? Would some resistors or a rheostat in line with the batteries better control the voltage? Maybe an adjustable voltage divider to adjust the voltage at the sense wire of a Honda regulator? Would a separate additional regulator need to be designed to apply just the right voltage to the battery? Need a little help from our electrical engineer buddies. How would one determine what capacity each cell should be? Small ones would be easier to put on the bike, under the seat or in the tail or someplace.
The 550/560 hybrid clone cafe racer will be needing something like this.

[bakalorz]

I know they use big NiCads on airplanes just fine, jets, piston poppers, and turboprops. Some of the turboprops will completely drain the NiCad in about three start attempts, they get fully recharged in a minute or two once one engine is running, so if it is done correctly in a properly designed system NiCads can work. These batteries last many years. The trick will be getting the bike's system to act like it was designed correctly.
The little RC NiCads are 1.2 volts per cell, ten of them in series would make a 12 volt battery pack. Eleven of them would be 13.2 volts, closer to what the charging system runs at, would this work better than ten of them? Would some resistors or a rheostat in line with the batteries better control the voltage? Maybe an adjustable voltage divider to adjust the voltage at the sense wire of a Honda regulator? Would a separate additional regulator need to be designed to apply just the right voltage to the battery? Need a little help from our electrical engineer buddies. How would one determine what capacity each cell should be? Small ones would be easier to put on the bike, under the seat or in the tail or someplace.
The 550/560 hybrid clone cafe racer will be needing something like this.

Nicads will accept charge even more rapidly than previously mentioned, 3 or 4 C (15 -20 minutes from dead to full charge)(even considerably higher rates than that under some conditions), but I suspect they are not a good choice for your intended application (smoothing out the R/R output, but not starting the bike)

Although they will accept charge rapidly, once they are fully charged, putting any more charge into them damages them rapidly. The problem is that once charged, they "peak" and the voltage declines, which (with our style R/Rs) would tend to cause them to overcharge rapidly and be damaged (unless there were enough cells in series that they never became fully charged, which MIGHT be do-able ... I don't know enough to speculate)

If what you want is the "three start attempts" capablity described above, you could probably get that with NiCads, but you would need a special charger for them. (i.e. not our R/R system)
It may (or may not) be possible to get such a system to also do the "smoothing stator output" function as well.

But assuming all you want is the smoothing, I suspect that the way to get that would be either via capacitors or a MUCH smaller lead acid battery.

Given that you don't intend to use the battery for starting, I suspect you could go much lower than 14 AH, possibly by a factor of 10 or more.
I have seen some very small sealed batteries used in alarm systems, which might work well for that. (battery volume and weight will scale with capacity, so less AH capacity will be smaller)
I don't know how well those will tolerate the output of the R/R system, but I suspect it will be better than NiCads.

The other alternative would be the use of capacitors.
This has definately been done, and apparently at least sometimes succesfully.
I don't know any details, though I remember occasionally reading in the forums here about people doing so.

On the minus side ...
I have read several stories on the forums here of people blowing the main fuse (which disconnects the battery) or intentionally running the bike without a battery (and no other changes). At least some of them ended up blowing out their igniters. (OTOH, others apparently managed to remove the battery and run the bike successfully without damaging anything as far as they could tell)

So there definately are risks.

I have no real answers for you, but some things to think about ...

[hampshirehog]

How about one of these:

http://www.boyerbransden.com/PBdynamo.html

(power box)

I had a mate who was an electronics whizz and he made a few of these for me very cheaply. I lost contact with him and have bought a few of these since and they work fine.

[850 Combat]

I ran my '69 Norton Atlas for a number of years with no battery. It had a magneto for spark, and an alternator for lighting. I have run my Norton commando for years at a stretch with a dead battery, it has a starting capacetor. About 15 years ago I installed electronic ignition, and now I need a battery with at least 10.5 volts or the spark is erratic. That is less convenient.

Lots of snow mobiles don't have batteries, but they have lights, heated grips, etc.

[tkent02]

I ran my '69 Norton Atlas for a number of years with no battery. It had a magneto for spark, and an alternator for lighting. I have run my Norton commando for years at a stretch with a dead battery, it has a starting capacetor. About 15 years ago I installed electronic ignition, and now I need a battery with at least 10.5 volts or the spark is erratic. That is less convenient.

Lots of snow mobiles don't have batteries, but they have lights, heated grips, etc.

Nortons had different systems, what works for them won't necessarily work for us. And a snow machine designed to have no battery is different yet again.

[850 Combat]

Nortons had different systems, what works for them won't necessarily work for us. And a snow machine designed to have no battery is different yet again.

Agreed. the electrical systems are different, but they are there for the same purpose. I don't think my RD400, or XT250 are very fussy about their batteries either, now that I consider it.

[still_bluenoser]

NiCad batterys don't charge like liquid cell batterys. Try it and see.

Well, technically they do. They just dont like too high a rate of charge, and once they reach their max charge they need to stop.

Thermal runnaway isn't pretty

[Graham]

I know they use big NiCads on airplanes just fine, jets, piston poppers, and turboprops. Some of the turboprops will completely drain the NiCad in about three start attempts, they get fully recharged in a minute or two once one engine is running, so if it is done correctly in a properly designed system NiCads can work. These batteries last many years. The trick will be getting the bike's system to act like it was designed correctly.
The little RC NiCads are 1.2 volts per cell, ten of them in series would make a 12 volt battery pack. Eleven of them would be 13.2 volts, closer to what the charging system runs at, would this work better than ten of them? Would some resistors or a rheostat in line with the batteries better control the voltage? Maybe an adjustable voltage divider to adjust the voltage at the sense wire of a Honda regulator? Would a separate additional regulator need to be designed to apply just the right voltage to the battery? Need a little help from our electrical engineer buddies. How would one determine what capacity each cell should be? Small ones would be easier to put on the bike, under the seat or in the tail or someplace.
The 550/560 hybrid clone cafe racer will be needing something like this.

Forget the NiCads and get a 4LBS battery it is only 3.4 lbs. Unhook the starter and put a relay on your oil pressure switch to work all the lighting. The lights will be off for starting (more power to coils) and will only come when you have oil pressure and the motor is running. If you don?t use the lights change the regulator to a non-shunt reg. Shunt regulators don?t work good without a good load on them. This is the cheapest and simplest way to lower battery size and weight.

http://www.buyatvsonline.com/powerss...ry-p-8975.html

To get rid of the battery you will need a magneto system with a regulator for lighting. A few old 70s dirt bikes that kind of system but you will still have to mod it to fit in place of your stator.

Ether way should work you right leg muscle.

[tkent02]

[FONT=Verdana]Forget the NiCads and get a 4LBS battery it is only 3.4 lbs. Unhook the starter and put a relay on your oil pressure switch to work all the lighting. The lights will be off for starting (more power to coils) and will only come when you have oil pressure and the motor is running.

Don't like your oil pressure switch idea for the lights, so one night when I'm blasting around and for some reason lose oil pressure the headlights go out? No, thanks. Been there, done that, didn't like it much. Had an old Yamaha that would burn out a headlight once in a while at high RPM. When you feel the tires hit gravel but you can't see which side of the road you are on, it's not a good feeling.
The bike already has a switch for the lights, don't need another. Anyway this 4LBS battery would work, just looking for something different, and smaller. Not sure but I think the Compufire regulator could work well with NiCads, as it regulates by shutting off the power from the stator completely, so no overcharging the batteries. Can't hurt to give it a try.

[Adler]

So today I was rooting around my basement and I came across this...

http://www.homesecuritystore.com/p-239-bd412-12-volt-4ah-battery.aspx?affiliateid=10054&zmam=55691497&zmas=1&zmac=4&zmap=BD412

It resparked my interest in this subject.

Do you guys think I could just ziptie this cute little thing into the bike hook it up and forget about it? or will it cause an explosion, dismemberment, decapitation, castration or otherwise?

[sschering]

You guys think a little 12 volt NiCad pack would work? Something like the electric RC cars and airplanes use?

One of the XS 650 guys did that..
He removed the starter and hid a RC Car battery in the starter compartment..
XS-650's require a battery to provide 12v to the alternator field.. No battery=no power on those bikes.

I doubt it would last long in there due to heat and vibration..

[Steve]

Please remind me ... why do you want to lose the battery?

If it's for size limitations due to moving other stuff around, OK, not much we can do about that.

If it's to save weight, how desparate are you to trim OUNCES?

The battery that Graham mentioned is 3.4 pounds. I just looke up the X-2 Extreme battery at Batteries Plus (That's what I have in my bikes.) It's a sealed AGM battery that can be run in any position except upside-down, and has more capacity than a stock battery. They claim it weighs 9.4 pounds. A whopping 6 pound difference. Come on, is 6 pounds really that much to worry about?

Personally, I feel that an extra 6 pounds of battery will add a LOT of convenience to everyday riding, but, then, maybe this bike isn't for everyday riding.

.

[Adler]

Please remind me ... why do you want to lose the battery?

If it's for size limitations due to moving other stuff around, OK, not much we can do about that.

If it's to save weight, how desparate are you to trim OUNCES?

The battery that Graham mentioned is 3.4 pounds. I just looke up the X-2 Extreme battery at Batteries Plus (That's what I have in my bikes.) It's a sealed AGM battery that can be run in any position except upside-down, and has more capacity than a stock battery. They claim it weighs 9.4 pounds. A whopping 6 pound difference. Come on, is 6 pounds really that much to worry about?

Personally, I feel that an extra 6 pounds of battery will add a LOT of convenience to everyday riding, but, then, maybe this bike isn't for everyday riding.

.

What huge convenience gains are you referring to? Is kickstarting really that much of a hassle?!

Its not the space nor is it the weight. Its the convenience.It is a pain in the butt for me to get to any dealer who sells batteries for a reasonable price. Canadian tire sells them but charges a whopping $80 for them. If I dont actually need the battery... Why bother? At the very least I want options for other cheap batteries.

Also I feel it is of huge interest to anyone who IS moving stuff around and I do have plans for the space I would save.

[earlfor]

What huge convenience gains are you referring to? Is kickstarting really that much of a hassle?!

Its not the space nor is it the weight. Its the convenience.It is a pain in the butt for me to get to any dealer who sells batteries for a reasonable price. Canadian tire sells them but charges a whopping $80 for them. If I dont actually need the battery... Why bother? At the very least I want options for other cheap batteries.

Also I feel it is of huge interest to anyone who IS moving stuff around and I do have plans for the space I would save.

Ahhh, its that horrible $80 for a battery every couple of years that is the motivation. Should have known.

Earl

[Adler]

Ahhh, its that horrible $80 for a battery every couple of years that is the motivation. Should have known.

Earl

I am so poor I aspire to be a beggar one day.

But enough about me... will it blend?