Igniter blew, new one comming... WHAT NOW?

**earlfor** · 04-27-2005, 10:12 PM

Re: Igniter blew, new one comming... WHAT NOW?

Yes, partially. After installing your new ignitor, unplug your stator from the R/R. Set your meter to the AC200 scale. Start the bike and with the bike at 5K rpm check AC voltage between each of the three legs of the stator, They should all show 80 volts AC. Shut the bike down once this check is done and reconnect the R/R to the stator. Start the bike and with the headlight on high beam, your voltage at the battery terminals should climb to a peak level of 14.8 volts at 5k rpm. It should only momentarily spike above this when rpm is increased beyond 5k and should immediately return to 14.8 or slightly less. If voltage holds steady at any rpm at a level greater than 14.8, your R/R is faulty.

The most common cause of ignitor failure is a faulty R/R and too high a charging voltage.

Earl

Originally posted by cerm78

Hi everyone!

How can I test my charging circuit without risking my "new" ignitor box??
Is it possible to run the bike and test the stator/R/R disconnected from the battery?

Please help! I miss to ride my bike

Thanks!!

**focus frenzy** · 04-28-2005, 02:27 AM

I would like to add that a poor ground for the regulator rectifier will cause charging issues and that the ground for the R&R should be moved to the battery ground.
it is best to run a separate ground from the battery to the regulator ground terminal as on some bikes most of the electrical system grounds are connected to the battery box.

stator output should be 80 volts ac or better, on many multi meters there is different settings for AC and DC volts, make sure you have it set for AC volts or you will get a very false reading.

charging output at 5,000 rpm should be between 14 to 14.5 volts DC. up to 14.8 is ok but a bit on the high side.
below 14, but above 13volts is charging but low, a charge rate in this range is often due to bad connections between the stator harness and the regulator, the headlight switch contacts, main fuse terminal contact, or poor regulator ground.

**Anonymous** · 04-28-2005, 11:08 AM

Thanks guys!

Earl, I've read and understood the procedure but, as you said, to test the R/R output voltage the bike must be running and everything connected... so, if my R/R is so fried to overvoltage the circuitry, I may burn my ignitor...

What if I power my ignition circuit with a second battery? Or put another way, what if I connect another battery as load for the charging system to do the test (and isolate ignition system from charging output)?

Do you think it's possible to do that without altering the test results?

F.Frenzy, I'll do what you suggest and wire direct grounds to every sensible circuit in my bike... Eventually I'll redo the complete electrical system and probably my wiring loom, but I'll be wiring the charging system grounds as and immediate solution.

Thank you all!

**focus frenzy** · 04-28-2005, 01:45 PM

you test the stator with it disconnected from the regulator so over voltage is not possible, the bike will be running on the battery alone.
if the stator checks out ok, you hook it back up to the regulator.
you then have the meter hooked to the battery and start the bike while watching the meter. if the voltage starts to spike you can instantly hit the kill switch and save the ignitor.

voltage high enough to kill the ignitor would also blow out light bulbs, if all your bulbs are good odds are you will be ok running the bike to test the voltage.
ignitors more often fail do to internal faults rather than external ones.

**Anonymous** · 04-28-2005, 02:28 PM

My bike wasn't burning bulbs but the headlight does funny things that lead me to suspect of overcharging problems: while increasing revs it does shine with more-than-normal intensity but in fast flashes, but not all the time...

I would prefer not to risk the new ignitor, but if there is no other way I'll try the test and hope to react fast enough to save the ignitor in a spike scenario.

Thank you guys!

**isaac** · 04-28-2005, 04:59 PM

Your R/R could be spitting out occasional AC voltage spikes which you wouldn't be able to test with a meter. It's intermittent. That's what mine was doing. It was charging fine, but on the low side. Only fix is to replace the R/R with an electrex or a honda one. Since a honda one on ebay is only like $20 shipped, it's not worth screwing around with. I went through 6 sets of igniter transistors before I figured that out.

If you only run the bike for like 20 seconds it might not blow the igniter, but it's not worth risking really. I had one blow in 30.

PS, if you've got an blown igniter with a serviceable case, I'll buy it for $15.

**earlfor** · 04-28-2005, 07:40 PM

Voltage increases with rpm. At idle rpm, I would not expect to see more than 13 volts on the meter. Gradually increasing throttle and watching the meter should be no problem. Max charging voltage shold be not more than 14.8. That would be reached at 5K rpm. Voltage should not increase beyond that at higher rpm. The ignitor will tolerate 15-15.5 volts for a short time with no damage. A momentary spike to 15.5 would not destroy it. You shouldnt get any steady reading above 14.8 anyhow.

Earl

Originally posted by cerm78

My bike wasn't burning bulbs but the headlight does funny things that lead me to suspect of overcharging problems: while increasing revs it does shine with more-than-normal intensity but in fast flashes, but not all the time...

I would prefer not to risk the new ignitor, but if there is no other way I'll try the test and hope to react fast enough to save the ignitor in a spike scenario.

Thank you guys!

**Anonymous** · 04-29-2005, 10:55 AM

Isaac, I'm sorry to tell you that the igniter for my bike is not serviceable, and I bought exactly the same part number, so, I expect the "new" one to be non-serviceable as well...

In fact, the ignitor of my bike is a solid plastic block... By the way... I guess that any ignitor of a GS with electronic ignition and mechanical advance sould do the work, and maybe the differences are only at wiring connection level... If I'm right... I would like to get a serviceable ignitor too... Someone knows of part-number interchangeability?

Earl, I really really hope the ignitor survives the charging circuit test... I'm crossing fingers right now... The ignitor has arrived and I'm going to do the tests tomorrow if time allows...

Thank you guys! GSR is an invaluable source of information...

I'll keep you informed...

**earlfor** · 04-29-2005, 02:04 PM

I have run the same test that you are doing on many occasions. As long as the voltage does not hold at a level greater than 15.5 for a short time, you will be fine. I have not had a problem due to that. If voltage holds at any level higher than 14.8 , you can stop right there because 14.9 or more is unacceptable and the R/R is faulty.

Earl

Originally posted by cerm78

Earl, I really really hope the ignitor survives the charging circuit test... I'm crossing fingers right now... The ignitor has arrived and I'm going to do the tests tomorrow if time allows...

Thank you guys! GSR is an invaluable source of information...

I'll keep you informed...

**Anonymous** · 04-29-2005, 04:05 PM

Hi all,
Cerm, glad you got that ignitor, good luck with it. (We had pm'ed about ignitors previously.) I too replaced mine (82 450L) with a used one; rode 10 miles, at 10.1, it died...2 miles from home, great workout!

I'm suspecting the RR as the cause of it all. previous tests of dc at the battery indicated nothing unusually high, maybe not even to 14, but that was before trouble. I have a spare stock RR, but it's used, too and blown for all I know.

Isaac, you mention a Honda RR....which one?!?!? Did that solve your ignitor (transistor) blowing problems? (separate discussion) My problems sound identical to yours; stalls, won't start, no spark either plug, cools off, runs for a random amount of time, stalls again (repeat until out of patience).

As far as I know from playing around on BikeBandit, the following all have the SAME igniter:

On unit:BB1201 1B 12V Bike Bandit: 4911794-001

1982: 450EZ,TXZ,LZ
1981: 450LX,SX,TX; 250TX
1980: 450LT,ST; 550ET,LT,T; 250TT

BTW, there should be a parts number/swap database in here somewhere.

**Anonymous** · 05-02-2005, 02:52 PM

I've been doing pasive testing on my R/R and Stator and there are my results:

Stator: All resistance readings between pairs of "yellow" wires throw 0.5 Ohm, what seems to be within specs.

Regulator/Rectifier:
I did this test with the Ohmeter settings because I did not receive any continuity beep with my digital multimeter.

- From Black/White to Yellow: 5 Ohm
- From Black/White to White/Red: 5 Ohm
- From Black/White to White/Blue: 5 Ohm

That seems to be fine, since 5 Ohm is a low resitance that can be considered continuity.

- From Yellow to Black/White: infinity
- From White/Red to Black/White: infinity
- From White/Blue to Black/White: infinity

That seems to be fine too... But there is where the funny part starts:

- From Red to Yellow: infinity (that is OK)
- From Red to White/Red: 6000 KOhm (not exactly infinity)
- From Red to White/Blue: 1 KOhm (not infinity at all)

- From Yellow to Red: 5 Ohm (that's OK)
- From White/Red to Black/White: 7000 KOhm (very bad)
- From White/Blue to Black/White: 5 Ohm (that's OK)

So I guess that my R/R is fried at the output side and it is guilty of frying my ignitor and causing my headlight to do funny things... As the tests shown... my stator is just fine and wasn't damaged by the R/R...

That mean that I'm now looking for a new R/R... I guess that my best bet is an Electrex unit...

Any comment or suggestion is welcome, as always...

Thankyou all guys! Keep riding (for those who can...

)

Hasta la vista!

**Anonymous** · 05-07-2005, 07:44 AM

Cerm78,
I checked my Clymer repair manual and it lists no specifications for the R/R test you mention...could you list what the measurements SHOULD be? I suspect I'm in the same situation as you are.

I've checked other discussions here (search under "regulator mod") and have ordered a R/R from a honda cx500 (Ebay, cost me $18). Sometime in the next two weeks, I'm going to measure EVERYTHING, starting with the stator and going to the spark plugs and see if I can identify the problem and solve it.

This is too common a problem to let the story go unfinished.

Seems in addition to switching R/Rs we could also start to find substitute ignitors (CDI). Does anyone know if we could adapt some newer ones to use on our old GSs?

**Anonymous** · 06-06-2005, 08:13 AM

OK, I found the problem.

Wasn't my igniter at all. It was the 4-pin connector coming from the engine that contains the 3 wires from the ignition crankshaft sensors (pick-up coils) and the oil pressure indicator wire. The common wire for the two sensors must have had a bad connection. (The common wire because both cylinders had no spark when engine died.)

I had that connector apart a couple times to check the sensors (70 ohms, OK), but I never really cleaned it up, maybe I just sprayed some WD40 in there and reconnected it.

I found the bad connections AFTER I installed a new battery (I was desperate to try anything, and the old battery was a bit weak). It was a bit taller than the old battery, so I had to pull the offending sensor connector aside a bit in order to slide it in. I installed the new battery, fired up the engine and tried to install the right side cover. as soon as I place the cover on and it bumped those wires, the engine DIED instantly. I started it back up and touched the connector; engine died instantly. That bad connector acted just like a kill switch!!!!!!! I repeated this several times, with the same results. Then, once, it wouldn't start, so I jiggled the connctor, then it started.

So I took the sensor apart, reconnected; same behavior. I took it apart again, and scrubbed off the pins with a cotton swab and contact cleaner, did the same with the sockets (but used a toothpick). Lotsa black gunk came off both parts. Then, I bent the pins inward ever so slightly so that they'd be in more firm contact with the sockets.

Restarted the bike and then tapped the connector, shook it, slapped it around....engine was still running smoothly. I literally laughed out loud; it's been 2 months of poking around and I've finally found it.

In an effort to fix the ignition problem, I went through the checklist on the stator papers (on this site) and my system is OK. I thought a bad RR could have been frying my igniter(s). I went through all the electrical connections to/from RR, in headlight housing, battery, ignition and kill switches; everything but the signal and taillights and any electical connectors I'd have to pull the tank to get to. (That was my next idea). I also picked up extra coils, an extra igniter, RR and even a honda RR on ebay. And the problem ended up being one dirty electrical connector.

Well, at least now I have some spare parts and know that all my other connectors are clean. I am also much more familiar with my motorcycle. And, I'm a whole lot smarter!

So far, 50 trouble free miles.

Derrick

**Anonymous** · 06-14-2005, 03:14 PM

Hi Derrick, sorry I didn't answer your question but this is the first time I read tGSr Forums since a lot of time...

It's pleasant to know you discovered your problem and this sould be a lesson for all of us: An old bike like ours will collect gunk and dirt over the years and it will hide in very sensitive places...

Well, now you're done and have a lot of extra pieces... now I know who to ask for parts for my bike... in fact I'm looking for a Honda RR right now.

Regards,

Esteban.

Igniter blew, new one comming... WHAT NOW?

Igniter blew, new one comming... WHAT NOW?

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