synthetic or not synthetic

[twistedwankel]

Blend is only 20% Synthetic

For what it's worth. All the blends are simply pouring 1 synthetic into 4 regular oils of the same viscosity of the same brand oil.

If you're in a pinch this is worth knowing. There is no special "process" used in a blend they just provide 20% synthetic.

Only the best synthetics are acid modified meaning they can neutralize all the acid produced in the recommended time/use interval. A blend is always capable of doing this with the regular oil.

The only meaningful advantage of using synthetic oil is an infinite ability to change viscosity 10-40W or other as temperature dictates. Regular oil loses this ability in a relatively short time.

Synthetic is expensive and regular oil isn't so just change it more often to keep wear under control. Unless of course you race the vehicle or run it in dusty conditions. Change is for the best sometimes.

I love all the synthetics but can't justify their use ($) under normal perfect conditions. I also drink lite beer in excess of 2 cans per day and have lived to 60....go figure. Still comes out yellow after each use.

BTW you can mix viscosities of the same manufacturer too. A trick we learned in racing...do that which achieves your desired result. We ran 1/2 10-30W and 1/2 10-40W in a high revving turbo Honda and it worked best. But changed very often too.

[Addy Leung]

I have following information, do you think it is right or not?

My old mechanic told me that the requirement of the engine oil for Motorcycle and private car is totally different.
Since the engine oil in the private car does not serve the clutch and gear box. Most private car use dry clutch and separate heavy gear box oil (80W to 90W) in gear box compartment.
The condition in motorcycle is different. The engine oil in motorcycle serves both the wet clutch and the gear box. Too light weight engine oil will make clutch slip and gear box shear force will be very easy breakdown the oil and make the engine oil to have shorter life.
You may just try to see and use a finger to feel the used engine oil from motorcycle( especially the heavy big bike, no matter it is old or present model) and private car. The used engine oil ( especial the synthetic oil) from motorcycle like water, no more viscosity. But it would not be happen in private car used engine oil with same mile of usage.
One thing more, the engine speed of motorcycle is much much higher than private car( some of the motorcycle engine speed reach to 15k rpm, or even higher, like the Honda CBR250, it has 18k rpm red line)
So my old mechanic told me that I should use normal private car engine oil with 10W40 or higher weight in summer to save money but do not abuse the engine, and also change it regularly around every 3k to 5k mile.
If I do want have fun with the bike at top speed, I should use the synthetic oil specially design for motorbike (but not just design for any private car).

[Road_Clam]

I have following information, do you think it is right or not?

My old mechanic told me that the requirement of the engine oil for Motorcycle and private car is totally different.
Since the engine oil in the private car does not serve the clutch and gear box. Most private car use dry clutch and separate heavy gear box oil (80W to 90W) in gear box compartment.
The condition in motorcycle is different. The engine oil in motorcycle serves both the wet clutch and the gear box. Too light weight engine oil will make clutch slip and gear box shear force will be very easy breakdown the oil and make the engine oil to have shorter life.
You may just try to see and use a finger to feel the used engine oil from motorcycle( especially the heavy big bike, no matter it is old or present model) and private car. The used engine oil ( especial the synthetic oil) from motorcycle like water, no more viscosity. But it would not be happen in private car used engine oil with same mile of usage.
One thing more, the engine speed of motorcycle is much much higher than private car( some of the motorcycle engine speed reach to 15k rpm, or even higher, like the Honda CBR250, it has 18k rpm red line)
So my old mechanic told me that I should use normal private car engine oil with 10W40 or higher weight in summer to save money but do not abuse the engine, and also change it regularly around every 3k to 5k mile.
If I do want have fun with the bike at top speed, I should use the synthetic oil specially design for motorbike (but not just design for any private car).

Good comments. This is exacly the reasoning I try to explain to the millions of cheap a$$ customers that come into my bike shop and say "Ahh screw it, I just run cheap recycled Rotella tractor oil in my bike". My oil of preferance is Kawasaki 10W-40. The stuff is $3.69/qt.

[Keith Winter]

Hey,
Ah yes, the age old oil debate. One of the best thing's about "true" synthetic oil is it stay's the same "thickness" (easy to understand) whether it's hot or cold. That is why lot's of user's report a quieter engine and a smoother clutch when the bike is hot. Regular "dino" oil does not have this ability. After living in Alberta, Canada, for ten years and using full synthetic in both my car's and bike's, I can vouch for the fact that synthetic oils are the same to pour at -30c to +30c. Go REALLY up north and NOTHING use's any kind of regular oil, it's all synthetic. In short, regular oil can not protect moving part's under load as good as synthetic oil. I say "regular" oil because there are blends of Dino based oil that can rival synthetic's, but they cost a fortune.
The debate on oil will continue for as long as engine's require it, and the cost verses changing frequency, the leaking seal myths, the tales of the slipping clutch, and all the other stuff will continue as well. To each his own I guess. The fact is;
A $2 a quart jug of "dino" oil can not protect the moving parts in our air cooled bike engines as good as full synthetic oil can, period. If you care about getting the best protection for your bike engine that we can get on a day to day basis, synthetic is the way to go.
The other important thing about what oil to use, and this may be MORE important than "dino verses synthetic", is that little sign on the oil can, ENERGY CONSERVING. The metalic compounds that are added to both dino AND synthetic oils to get the "energy conserving" rating are NOT good for the clutch OR roller bearings that our bike's use. Now, it may take years to see problems in the roller bearings in the engine from these metalic compounds, but I have heard of clutch problems from just one oil change due to these compounds IN the oil, not what kind of oil it was. Energy conserving oil was engineered for the average passenger car engine, NOT motorcycle engine's.
Keith

[Nessism]

Hey,
Ah yes, the age old oil debate. One of the best thing's about "true" synthetic oil is it stay's the same "thickness" (easy to understand) whether it's hot or cold. That is why lot's of user's report a quieter engine and a smoother clutch when the bike is hot. Regular "dino" oil does not have this ability. After living in Alberta, Canada, for ten years and using full synthetic in both my car's and bike's, I can vouch for the fact that synthetic oils are the same to pour at -30c to +30c. Go REALLY up north and NOTHING use's any kind of regular oil, it's all synthetic. In short, regular oil can not protect moving part's under load as good as synthetic oil. I say "regular" oil because there are blends of Dino based oil that can rival synthetic's, but they cost a fortune.
The debate on oil will continue for as long as engine's require it, and the cost verses changing frequency, the leaking seal myths, the tales of the slipping clutch, and all the other stuff will continue as well. To each his own I guess. The fact is;
A $2 a quart jug of "dino" oil can not protect the moving parts in our air cooled bike engines as good as full synthetic oil can, period. If you care about getting the best protection for your bike engine that we can get on a day to day basis, synthetic is the way to go.
The other important thing about what oil to use, and this may be MORE important than "dino verses synthetic", is that little sign on the oil can, ENERGY CONSERVING. The metalic compounds that are added to both dino AND synthetic oils to get the "energy conserving" rating are NOT good for the clutch OR roller bearings that our bike's use. Now, it may take years to see problems in the roller bearings in the engine from these metalic compounds, but I have heard of clutch problems from just one oil change due to these compounds IN the oil, not what kind of oil it was. Energy conserving oil was engineered for the average passenger car engine, NOT motorcycle engine's.
Keith

Not to pour gasoline on the smouldering embers of the "age old oil debate" but...

- Synthetic oils have a better viscosity index than dino oils. This means is pours better at low temps. This does NOT mean that it pours as good at -30c as it does at +30c because it doesn't.

- Synthetic oils do not protect an engine "better" unless you are refuring to an engine on the verge of melt down from overheating. Synthetic oils last longer, that's their main strength, which allows an extended change interval.

Regarding "energy conserving" oils causing problems with roller bearings...I've never heard this one. Too slippery causing rollers to skid? I thought this was a false claim against synthetic? Below is a comment from Amzoil's web site about roller bearings and their oil:

"Synthetic motor oils are no more "slippery" than petroleum motor oils. The tractive coefficient, which is the measure of the case with which a lubricant facilitates sliding, is essentially the same for both petroleum oils and synthetics. Synthetic motor oils are also used in many production and racing cars that have sophisticated roller follower technology and they have absolutely no problems whatsoever with roller bearings not turning."

Honestly, the reason there is so much debate about oil is because people keep spreading rumor as fact. Sorry to sound harsh but that's the way it is.

[Nightmare]

Spending big bucks on motorcycle specific oils, is not going to do much other than lighten your wallet. Again, my opinion.

So... it could be argued that Synthetic oil improves the performance of your bike by giving you a slightly better power to weight ratio

I think the arguement of synthetic and a wet clutch is interesting, along the lines of oil additives, any oil with high zinc should in theory promote clutch slippage as the zinc is supposed to prevent metal to metal contact/wear...

For the record I'm running full synth

[Keith Winter]

Like I said,
To each his own. I did not say anything about the synthetic oil being bad for roller bearing's, or that synthetic is more "slippery" than regular oil. What I DID say was that the METALIC COMPOUNDS that are found in ENERGY CONSERVING rated oils, both dino AND synthetic, are not good,, or maybe not recomended is a better term,, for the clutch or roller bearings that are found in most bikes. The synthetic,, or "dino",, aspect of the oil has nothing to do with the "energy conserving" aspect of most passenger car type oils.
According to ALL the deisel mechanics I know,, both heavy duty and passenger car type,, the reason "energy conserving" oils are not to be put into any deisel engine, is because of the LOADS that deisel engines place on the internal, moving, engine parts. Oil for deisel engines ALSO have additive packages for sludge, acids, ect, ect, but they also have nothing to do with "energy conserving" metalic compounds. The metalic compounds,, as far as I can remember the explaination,, in lowering friction on the bearing/ moving part surface's, reduce's the load bearing ability's of these parts.
The average pickup, or car, MOST of the time is only running at about 25% of it's maximum power output,, and even this isn't ALL the time. If by using energy conserving oils in the average car, with the light duty cycle the average engine see's, it makes no difference if you lose a little bearing load ability.
Motorcycle engines,, as most of us know,, are called upon to put out as much output as they can ALLOT of the time, or in other words, they are a high load engine,, just like a deisel. Like I said,, to each his own opinion.
If there are those out there that really want to know about this stuff,, you can contact any of the large oil company's,, Chevron, Shell, Esso (or Standard maybe?) ect, and ask them for the run down on Synthetic verses crude type oil, energy conserving data, and just about everything else you would want to know about oil. This is what I did years ago, and found that the tech's at Chevron were the best, and the most patient, at explaining things to "Joe average".
Keith

[Road_Clam]

Man I just love the techno mudfest synthetic vs. petro !!! As soon as I see the first post, I crack open a beer, sit back, and keep hy head low.....

[Arfdog]

The oil in my '86 GS450 ws mineral, but was changed to synthetic (or semi maybe) a week before I got the bike, and since then the clutch slips at over 7000rpm. I'm changing back to castrol GTX 10W40 tonight.

[cberkeley]

yup! ....Have been using Castrol GTX in my private autos and lawn-mower since '75 and never a problem to date. Used Synthetic (KLOTZ) in my racing karts in the 80's and Bel-Ray 2-stroke outboard oil in my houseboat and in my buddy's racing boats (Bel-Ray sponsorship on the boats).
Did a bike-engine rebuild last year and was surprised to see the pristine condition of the innards (>48000-miles). I'm almost certain the four POs only used dino oil in it as she was certainly a commuter bike.
Anticipate changing oil and filter next month and it will be Castrol GTX 20W50 again.
But this debate will have no end as each has their own imbedded opinions / preferences and the marketing people sure know how to play us to the hilt, with just the right mix of fact, fiction and omitted data, be it motor-oil, toothpaste, detergents, cosmetics, tissue-paper .....the list can go on forever.

[Road_Clam]

Used Synthetic (KLOTZ) in my racing karts in the 80's

I run Klotz R50 full synthetic premix in my KX500. The only reason I run a full synthetic is that full syn. oils keeps the internal exhaust power valves from getting all gunked up (vs. a petro based oil), and operating smoothly. When you have a sticking power valves, you loose a lot of midrange throttle response and torque.

[ScottMc1100L]

The oil in my '86 GS450 ws mineral, but was changed to synthetic (or semi maybe) a week before I got the bike, and since then the clutch slips at over 7000rpm. I'm changing back to castrol GTX 10W40 tonight.

What makes you think the clutch did not slip before the oil change?

...another oil thread , I suppose better than another political or religious thread :-|

[Arfdog]

What makes you think the clutch did not slip before the oil change?

I know the guy who sold it to me, and I know it was fine before the oil change..

...another oil thread , I suppose better than another political or religious thread :-|

So, do you guys think the oil price might rocket after the politicians decide to pull the troops out of Iraq?

In order to make the right decision about what oil to use, do you think a helpful question to ask ourselves would be "What oil would Jesus use?"?

:-D

[Mike McNaney]

Seems the best aside from science would be to ask the guy with 30K+ miles on his bike. When my clutch slipped at hi rpm, I changed pressure plate springs, not oil.

Really, if you change your oil and filter on schedule then your chances of any oil related problems is nil.

Heres a tidbit. I worked for Chrysler Motors in tech support and training for 8 years in the 90's.
Mopar Performance and R&D used bulk 30w CG oil back then. Thats diesel grade oil.

Unless you're racing and oil science is a integral part of the motor blueprint, I vote for diesel grade 15-40w changed every 2500 and forget about it.

[Boondocks]

Seems the best aside from science would be to ask the guy with 30K+ miles on his bike. When my clutch slipped at hi rpm, I changed pressure plate springs, not oil.

Really, if you change your oil and filter on schedule then your chances of any oil related problems is nil.

Heres a tidbit. I worked for Chrysler Motors in tech support and training for 8 years in the 90's.
Mopar Performance and R&D used bulk 30w CG oil back then. Thats diesel grade oil.

Unless you're racing and oil science is a integral part of the motor blueprint, I vote for diesel grade 15-40w changed every 2500 and forget about it.

Good advice.