electrical problem

[spector4]

My bike is a 1983 GS450T with a little over 3000 miles on it. After purchase by PO in '83, it was garaged for ten years with only 50 miles on it. I got it in '93, cleaned it up and got it running and put a little over 3k on it before it wound up garaged from '95 until this past week. It was stored without a battery in it. Only work that's been done to it so far was changing filter/oil, replacing spark plugs, and rinsing off the major grime on it. I can't find my repair manual, so I ordered a new one a couple days ago.

On to the problem. So, bought a new battery, went to put it in and as soon as I connected both pos and neg, got an arc and a good bit of an electrical bun on my thumb. Ground wire smoked a little where it connects to the frame at the other end. Key was not even in the bike. I was prepared for everything else I could need to do on this bike, having done a good bit before, but electrical is something I've never had to mess with. I left the battery disconnected. I'm assuming I have a short but I have no idea how to start looking, where to start, or even what to look for. I'm guessing it may be something like an exposed wire making contact with something, but as I said, electrical is not my forte. Anybody have any ideas, suggestions, advice, or maybe can point me towards something I can read that will help me out?

Thanks in advance.

[Steve]

Where has it been stored? If there is any chance of rodents in the area, check your entire wiring harness by pulling off the tank, opening the headlight and looking at everything. Mice tend to like the flavor of the insulation, so you might find some bare spots.

Also be sure to look inside the airbox. Yeah, there are no wires there, but there might be a nest in there.

.

[spector4]

Where has it been stored? If there is any chance of rodents in the area, check your entire wiring harness by pulling off the tank, opening the headlight and looking at everything. Mice tend to like the flavor of the insulation, so you might find some bare spots.

Also be sure to look inside the airbox. Yeah, there are no wires there, but there might be a nest in there.

.

dang, I didn't think of that. When I cleaned out the area around it, I did find that mice or rats had been at a bag of seed and a bag of soil near the bike. Thanks for the suggestion.

[spector4]

update

pulled the seat and tank, opened up the headlight, and went over all the wiring. found evidence of mice (droppings - I won't post the pics of that). Did not, however, find any bare wires. Under the left panel, I did find a bullet connector not connected to anything and one wire that the PO wrapped with duct tape (see pic). Neither one was contacting anything. I made sure of that, once the panel was off and I tested connecting the battery. Still a no-go.




Anything else I could try before tackling pulling all the wiring out, something I really, really, really don't want to do? This was the one thing I wasn't prepared to deal with and I don't think I'll have the free time to screw with it for a few months if it comes to learning more about electrical stuff and pulling all that wiring out looking or something.

[SqDancerLynn1]

Start by pulling the fuses & disconnect the Regulaator. then try & hook up the battery> MAKE sure to install it correct polarity. Put the fuses back one at a time while checking

[spector4]

okay, pulling the fuse (there's only one) had no effect. On that note - the bullet connector that's circled in the pic above is coming off of the fuse. The fuse only has on connection to it. Is that an issue? It was like that before when the bike was running.

While messing around with it tonight, after once again checking over all the wiring and finding nothing and after the fuse didn't have any effect, I went to check the battery one more time and the ground wire caught fire when I touched it to the terminal! Fire bad! Luckily, that's all that went up. The wire was completely shot. Does that tell me anything new, or is it still most likely a short somewhere in the system? Could it be something other than exposed wiring causing this problem? Again, the bike had no electrical issues at all prior to going into long storage and I have been unable to find any obvious exposed wiring. Would appreciate any and all suggestions/recommendations. I'd really love to get this bike running.

[J_C]

The fuse should be connected to something. I don't know your model bike, but I would have to think that the PO must have bypassed it for some reason. Do you see any other loose wires, or places where it appears a modification has been done? Unless your bike is different than mine, it should be between the battery and the ignition switch.

[spector4]

no other loose wires in the area, no connectors that end could go into. The PO only had it for about 50 miles and I can't see her having done anything to it, though I guess her husband could have. Can't imagine why he would have in such a short time, though. Only thing I can think of is when my dad pulled it out of storage in '93, he put it in the shop for them to check it out before he gave it to me. They might have done something to it. Whatever was done, though, was before I got my hands on it then and it ran fine for 3000+ miles after whatever they did. Granted, it spent a lot of time in storage since then, but nobody messed with it in that time. Puzzling.

[J_C]

Well, could be that was an inline fuse added for an accessory.... maybe you have a fuse in the headlight bucket? Maybe I'm just leading you down a bad path since I dont know your model... it's kind of hard to tell without seeing the entire harness. But since the ignition isn't on we can reasonably assume whatever problem there is exists in hot circuit as opposed to the switched circuit...

It is weird that after only 50+3000 miles there's duct tape and stuff....

[Shaughn]

okay, pulling the fuse (there's only one) had no effect. On that note - the bullet connector that's circled in the pic above is coming off of the fuse. The fuse only has on connection to it. Is that an issue? It was like that before when the bike was running.

.... Fire bad! ....

Sounds like you A) have a short, and B) something else took/is taking the hit for the fuse that was unwisely taken out of the circuit. Was there ever a fairing on the bike that is no longer there?

At any rate, it is time to buy a meter and check continuity to ground on the major circuits, time consuming, but better than a fire happening because you 80/20 fixed the problem

[spector4]

yeah, I can't imagine what led to the duct tape, either.

I can take pictures of all of the wiring, but I don't know what good that will do, unless there's something other than bare wire that I could be looking for. It's dark out now, but here's the only pic I snapped of the wiring yesterday, for whatever good that will do.

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk271/spector4/IMG_6974.jpg

oh, thanks for your help

[J_C]

you're welcome. The best I can suggest (assuming that the fuse should come before the ignition switch) is to follow the red wire back from the ignition switch all the way to the battery, and look to see if there's anything fishy with the wiring. There SHOULD be a fuse, somewhere.

[Shaughn]

... unless there's something other than bare wire that I could be looking for....

Short of getting a meter and checking electrically, you can start by looking for discolored insulation. Excess heat from an internal breakdown/corrosion will heat the insulation as it burns out and leave the wire discolored. Also, you can feel the wires, especially at the bends. If anywhere seems hollow, or seems to fold easily when compared to further down the same wire it is likely that that wire was over bent, and mechanically broke internally, at least partway through, and then burned the rest of the way through when the current was overloading that now thinned wire section. Also, check any connectors for corrosion, though that typically wouldn't present in the manner you're describing.

But really, you need to get a meter and check all the circuits that are on with key off, and all circuits connected before the key. You don't need power to check a problem, the ohmmeter part of any good DVOM will have a continuity test function, if not, set to the lowest ohms and check the resistance between all wires you expect to be powered and the frame. Should be infinity. If you find continuity (low resistance) on any normally hot wire to the frame, you've found your (first) short. Just keep in mind that rules of probability, you're as likely to have one short as you are to have many.

Good luck!

[spector4]

I'll go over all the wires again carefully. I didn't see any obvious discoloration or other signs you mentioned when I went over it yesterday. That said, there are all the bundles of wires that are wrapped together, so I'm guessing I'll need to pull all the wrapping off?

Any recommendations as far as a not-too-expensive meter to do the job? Once I pick one up, I'd appreciate some baby-step explanations. Like I said, never dealt with electrical before and it's a little bit intimidating. I'd much rather rebuild my carbs any day. I'll pull everything off and take detailed pics of all the wiring tomorrow.

Oh, guess I'll need a new ground wire. All that's left are the connectors. So glad that didn't go worse - I had visions of the battery exploding in my face one the smoke started and my whole bike going up in flames. Not a big confidence booster when I'm already not all about working with the electrical system anyway.

[Shaughn]

Bueller? Bueller? Bueller? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone?

You'll be better served by not getting a cheap meter, but you don't need to go nuts either. I spent about $70 on my meter, Ideal 61-360, and its been my workhorse for diag work for the past few years. You can get by probably with a 20-40$ one, but YMMV. Think of it this way, it's cheaper than a carb sync tool, and you'll use it for a hell of a lot more. This one has a nice rubber case and a strap to hang it so you can use both hands on the leads. (Not why I bought it, but surprisingly handy and can take a decent drop w/o harm)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?ie=UTF8&keywords=Ideal%2061-360&tag=swoggle5611-20&index=tools&linkCode=ur2

Also, it's probably wise to remove the battery at this point and set it away in a safe area. If it is not already damaged from the load and the fire, this will prevent it and you from going under more harm.

Check out the dansmc site, I can't vouch for it personally, but it has a good rep:

http://www.dansmc.com/electricaltesting.htm

Do some searching, a forum is not a good place to learn the basics of electrical diagnosis, but the practical issues are not that hard either. Do some googling, go to barnes & noble (or a library, they still have those? heh) and spend an evening or three reading some of the shop textbooks. Too expensive to buy, but good to read. Also, you can pick up cheaper books (ala the ______ Demystified series) to help you out.

Feel like you just got a homework assignment? Yep, you did. You know why?

.... Fire bad! ....

Good luck, we're here to help out of any tight spots.