Trying to find the source of an oil leak

[matt_gs450]

Hey All,

So I got my seals yesterday and tried to install them today. I bought a large socket to tap them into place. I used oil on the inner diameter and applied a little silicone spray to the OD of the seal. It just wouldn't seat though. I could only get one side of the seal in. After trying several times, I saw that the seal was starting to shred the same way as when I tried on my "practice" bike.

Luckily I bought two sets of seals so I still have another one to try again. However I really don't have any idea what to do differently. I know I used oil instead of grease. Maybe that makes the difference? Honestly though, it seems like the ID is too small to allow the seal to be tapped into it. Also, this procedure isn't described in any reference I've seen. I've only seen it mentioned on this forum.

I'm going to cool off and then I'll try using grease with the already shredded seal to see if it goes in. Pep talks are welcome at this point... I'm regretting pulling out the old seals due to a small leak like this.

Gracias,
Matt

[chuckycheese]

I understand

I understand exactly what you're going through. I did the same job on a Yamaha 650 I used to have and it took me 3 tries to get it right. The thing that's tearing up the seal is the very outer edge of the seal opening on the case. So...on my third try, I took a tiny file and went around the sharp edge and filed off just a minute amount of the edge...so little that you might not even be able to see it (but you will be able to feel it).

After that, it slipped in easily (with a little grease and a number of soft, straight-on taps) and worked perfectly.

The first reaction most people would have to this is that you'll ruin the whole 'shabang' and it will leak until the cows come home. If that happens, you've filed off way too much because filing off the amount I mentioned of the very outer edge could never make it leak...but it will make it so you can get it started without damaging it.

Lastly, based upon the picture you posted, I'd be surprised if that ends up being where the leak came from. After all you've been through, I hope I'm wrong about that.

[briyenkieth]

not silicone spray but sealant. Like rtv or something. Go slow you'll get it. Did you look at the gear indicator switch yet?

[matt_gs450]

chuckycheese: that's interesting timing. After unwinding with a couple beers, I had that thought as well before re-checking the thread. I was beginning to eye my small file set and contemplate giving the seal a little better chance to get in there by taking down that initial edge. I've got one seal left to try it with and I just may do that. I'll sleep on it though and see if anyone here wants to say "that's crazy, don't do it!" in the meantime.

briyenkieth: I'm nearly certain the drive shaft seal is the culprit. Once I got the sprocket off, it was obvious that oil was pooling up back there. And I really cleaned out the clutch/sprocket cavity while investigating so I'm sure it's not from the switch. There's just old cooked on oil spatter around it.

Once I got the old seals out, I could see that the mating of the upper/lower crankcase halves was burred in the seal opening. I think it might be from some substance used when the crankcase was reassembled in the past. That is where the oil is getting out. The old seals show evidence of this as well. I'll post pictures soon (but it's 90 degrees here and not the best weather for sitting with my laptop).

I very carefully filed down the burring with a round file. The filings felt soft, not like metal. Partially it was dry cooked oil and grit. I did some filing on the outside of the engine to get the "feel" of aluminum so I wouldn't file any (or much) aluminum in the seal opening. Then I removed the filings with an oily rag and compressed air. Then I buffed the joint with my dremel and a felt wheel. It's smooth to the touch now. It's a gamble because I didn't want to file away enough to cause a bigger leak. But I've had pretty good success with my file skills in the past (some call me a chiseler ) so I just did it. Now it's just a matter of getting that seal in there.

Thanks for your help so far. I'm going to just take a step back and think about this. I don't want to blow my second chance and have to wait another week for more parts.

-Matt

[chuckycheese]

Your choice!

If anyone thinks my suggestion will cause it to leak, they don't understand what I'm suggesting that you do. The amount of filing I'm advocating couldn't possibly change anything that matters....other than getting the new one in without ruining it. If the seal were 1/8 or 1/16 inch thick...it might not be a good idea but, even then, I still don't think it would matter. As it is, I think you'd reduce the sealing surface by about 1/100th.... no, even less....negligible!

Make positive that you push it in straight; if you have any doubt, gently remove it and start over. Good luck..you'll get it!

[matt_gs450]

no dice

OK. Well I tried and tried to get the damn seals in. I didn't file out the opening because I didn't want to cause any permanent damage to the engine. I even went to my moto mechanic and asked his advice. He said they should just pop right in. He suggested getting the engine hot before trying, as that's how he gets bearings into an engine block. I'm picturing warming up the motorcycle and then getting the burning hot parts off to try this. By the time I get the old seals pulled out, the block will probably be cool again and I'll have burns on my hands.

It almost seems like less trouble to take the @@#$()*&% engine apart and get them in that way. I really think that's what Suzuki intended with this particular engine.

I'm going to order several more sets. In the meantime I'll try to think of a better way to do this. Definitely wishing I hadn't taken out the old seals at this point.

-Matt

[almarconi]

Is the seal tearing on the outside diameter (near the block) or inside diameter (where is slips over the shaft)?

[matt_gs450]

Hi Al,

It's tearing on the outside diameter.

Thanks,
Matt

[almarconi]

Try chamfering the edge of the bore if its getting caught. This will give the seal a lead in. Use a small file or fine sandpaper to knock off any sharp edges. Clean the bore and inspect it for any roughness. I usually prepare of mixture of grease and oil to lubricate seals. Use a socket or piece of PVC pipe as a seal driver large enough to match the outer diameter of the seal. Seat the seal by hand making sure not to cock the seal in the bore and tap it home with your seal driver. Also inspect the shaft for any roughness and apply lubricant on both shaft and the seal. When you get the new seal measure it to make sure they sent you the correct seal. Are these OEM seals?

[chuckycheese]

Sorry

Well, Matt, I wish I had a better suggestion....

[matt_gs450]

The more I think about it, I would feel comfortable at least trying the chamfering approach. I think the heat was getting to me yesterday. That and the fact that I nicked myself several times and split my thumbnail. Oh yeah, and got in an argument about politics with some guy on the Internet. Nice day...

Also, the socket I bought does not exactly match the OD of the seals. The socket OD is about 1 cm less than that of the seal. I'll try and find a better driver.

I'll leave this thread alone until I get those seals in there (or my mechanic does).

Thanks for your help guys.

-Matt