Engine work.

[Guest]

So despite my desire not to have to do any engine work on the project bike it looks like I'm headed in that direction. Since I have the head off to free up the pistons its been suggested that a) I hone the cylinders b) replace the rings c)since everythings off, new head and base gasket and d) might as well freshen the head, lap the valves and change the seals. I'm loath to do it as that blows the budget and the bike might not make it to the road next season for want of chain, rubber and brakes. What to do?

As I haven't done an engine rebuild in near on 25 years and have never done a bike engine I have a few questions:

1)If I pull the block to hone the cylinders am I then into oversize pistons & rings or will a light hone keep me in the realm of stock? As far as I can tell this is a fairly low mileage engine and without a proper bore guage I can't tell for sure but they show little to no wear and the rings seal tight.

2)Once I pull the cylinders and do the aforementioned hone how do I reintroduce the pistons? My 750 manual makes reference to a tool like a miniature ring compressor but I've never seen such a thing. Obviously a standard compressor wouldn't work.

3) I am told you can't or shouldn't reuse base or head gaskets even if they are in good shape. Is this generally true? I know most will say its cheap insurance but if I'm pinching pennies?

4) Where is the best place to get gaskets and such ? I'm told gasket sets are not cheap up here and I think I heard around $60/80 for a base gasket alone

I guess its things like this that shoot up the cost of projects eh?

I appreciate all your comments.

cheers,
Spyug

[doctorgonzo]

My opinions, many built on the advice of others in the forum.

1)If I pull the block to hone the cylinders am I then into oversize pistons & rings or will a light hone keep me in the realm of stock? As far as I can tell this is a fairly low mileage engine and without a proper bore guage I can't tell for sure but they show little to no wear and the rings seal tight.


I don't think just a hone would require oversized rings. I guess you do need to measure.. maybe a local machine shop do the measurement for free or for a couple bucks?


2)Once I pull the cylinders and do the aforementioned hone how do I reintroduce the pistons? My 750 manual makes reference to a tool like a miniature ring compressor but I've never seen such a thing. Obviously a standard compressor wouldn't work.


You can work the block back over the pistons with 2 guys and a set of dental picks. I was able to do it, and I was a rebuild rookie as well.


3) I am told you can't or shouldn't reuse base or head gaskets even if they are in good shape. Is this generally true? I know most will say its cheap insurance but if I'm pinching pennies?


I just wouldn't do it. A whole set of Athena Gaskets that will have new exhaust gaskets, your oil seals, head, base, new cam cover gasket, the whole shebang is like $70.



4) Where is the best place to get gaskets and such ? I'm told gasket sets are not cheap up here and I think I heard around $60/80 for a base gasket alone


See above

[posplayr]

It is very easy to bend a ring in reassembly. (ask me how I know). However there is a very simple trick using a small section of PVC pipe that is tapered to insure the rings slip into the bore even while you are jostling the cylinder around. The key is to get sufficient taper in the PVC so it overlaps the taper at the bottom of the cylinder. This overlap allows the cylinder to rock without having the rings come out on one end while you are working the other.

I have not done it yet but plan to do my 750 soon with basically the exact same procedure. (rings,gaskets and valve lap).

Given the horror stories about gaskets I would only use OEM; check ebay for your model they could pop up. I understand Vesera is OEM, but please do your own DD.

The PVC device would be made of 3" pipe, (approx 1" long) outside tapered on one end (sander or such). Split the pipe so that a 4" hose clamp can be used to squeeze in the rings.

I attached a pic to get an idea.

[Nessism]

Partsnmore.com sells Athena gasket kits for very affordable prices, they are in Canada too which should make it convenient for you. Some people bash Athena gasket kits but I used one of their kits on my 1000S and the parts seem to be high quality to the naked eye and no leaks so far.

A simple ring and hone job should do the job unless your engine has more than 50k miles on it.

To install the cylinder over the rings, you have to lower the cylinder, or lift the pistons, in a controlled manner and get the compression rings pressed into the grooves in the pistons – the cylinder has a taper angle on the bottom to assist. If you have two people it helps but I’ve done it by myself many times before and have never had a problem doing this using nothing but my fingers – no special tools. I typically rest the cylinder on a couple blocks of wood and then turn the crank to get the pistons up into the cylinders, this way is easier too me because it’s easy to lower the cylinder too fast and fold over a ring. The trick is to go slowly working on one ring at a time; get all of one ring into the cylinder and then switch over to the other piston, working back and forth.

[DanTheMan]

Given the horror stories about gaskets I would only use OEM; check ebay for your model they could pop up. I understand Vesera is OEM, but please do your own DD.

FYI, Vesrah isn't OEM and the Vesrah gasket kit is the subject of many of those horror stories, I have one of those stories myself.

[doctorgonzo]

FYI, Vesrah isn't OEM and the Vesrah gasket kit is the subject of many of those horror stories, I have one of those stories myself.

Always associated good things with the Vesrah name, but I bought a set of vesrah valves, and one had a manufacturing defect, bubble in the metal that left a hole, RIGHT on the surface that contacts the valve seat so had to trash it. Doesn't give me the warm fuzzy about their quality control.

[spyug]

Thanks guys for all the input especially the heads up on gasket sets and the piston ring compressor. I'll be getting those for sure.

You are going to laugh about this.

I was out and about this morning on business and decided to stop in at my local Napa to find some exhaust studs. Friend Duaneage had PM'd to let me know they carry them in packs of 10. I had asked him for a parts # reference as the monkeys in that store have a hard time finding stuff. I wasn't wrong again. 8mm exhaust studs....no such thing they say. Infact they don't carry much in exhaust studs at all. Can they be ordered..... "Don't know....don't think so" Ok next question, "Do you have ball hones?" What? You know, engine cylinder hones. What are those? You're ****ting me right? No, never heard of it. WTF??????????????? I give up.

Went to Carquest. Would you believe an almost exact repeat. What's going on in the automotive world if the monkeys behind the parts counter don't know this stuff.

I'll still keep looking for studs or maybe shoot down to Buffalo to get some if I have to but in the meanwhile I got some cap screws that might work in a pinch.

I just wish there was one place you could go to round up all this stuff. It would make life way simpler.

Stay tuned for more of the fun and games on my road to making a Katana run.

Cheers all,
Spyug

[BentRod]

Been there, paid for that

Hey Spyug, how about some local advice, although I would not blame you for not following it. I rebuild one of my Gs engines a couple summers back, and I too was on a budget.

First off, Gaskets. Buy new, especially the head gasket. the head gaskets use crush rings, which are metal rings around the cylinder that once clamped, even for a few seconds, but the full load of the head being bolted on, are deformed and cannot be reset or reused. doing so you risk low compression or even leakage when the cylinder fires, scorching your can and head, which is exactly as bad as it sounds.

Honing:
Assuming you don't have any deep cuts in your cylinder walls, you should only need to have a glaze breaking and hone (you can look up those terms, they are pretty common).
You will need your valves lapped iff you dissasemble the head. To tell if it is otherwise needed do a leak test. you can do a basic leak test with the head flat on a table, upside down. pure a small amount of white spirits into the bowls forms by the cylinder heads. if any shows up under the head, they you need your valves lapped and your head ground.
I had both of these jobs done by a fellow forum member, OldSchoolOrange, who I can put you in contact with if you like. Price is pretty negotiable as he does it on the side to his normal job. He did a great job for me, and my compression reached the very upper range of the factory spec. He's also going to be cheap, but shop around.

Pistons:
I used std pistons and std rings to replace my old ones. I actually had two engines and refurbished all the pistons, and got lucky that two were within spec. I am also lucky to have access to all the needed tools to measure them. I can do the same for you if you do not have the measuring tools. The pistons were cleaned part by hot tank and part by hand.

Rings/gasket
I purchased rings and gaskets from SturgesCycle. with my CMA discount getting 10% off it became worth while, and I get to see before I buy. To assemble I used large hose clamps. they are not so easy to apply, but once on they are easy to orient the rings and remove the clamps, and they are super cheap. You can buy a ring compressor from PrincessAuto, for about 20$, but 4$ in hoseclamps worked for me.

Hope this helps
PM me if you want anymore info from me.

PS
my rebuild took me about 10hours of labour, including disassembly. Also, watch for other worn parts, such as the rod ends, wrist pins, or valve guides.

[BentRod]

this just in

just read your new post.

you can get 3prong cylinder hones at Prinessauto as well, if in stock, but your going to spend 40$ on equipment and stones, and I don;t think very well of ball hones. For that price you might as well get a pro to do it.

[rudy]

I got the kit from Z1 for my 1000. Can't remember if it was Athena or Vesrah. I know I've used both brands before and haven't had problems. The 1000 is still going fine with no leaks from the gaskets. I've put almost 10,000km on since June. It leaks a little now and then around the shift shaft seal. I thought I replaced it as well during the cleanup and rebuild, but can't remember anymore now.

When I rebuilt the XS650 I know I had an Athena kit. No leaks there either.


So what is your budget on this bike anyway Andy? Tires ain't all that cheap, should count on about $300, a good chain just over $100. Carb O-ring sets for a few bucks, probably some miscellaneous parts here and there like light bulbs and connectors. All in should be around the $6-700 range.

[rudy]

I have a 3 prong hone from Princess Auto that you're welcome to use. Might need a new set of stones, but they're pretty cheap. It worked great anytime I used it. I do remember it wasn't cheap to buy, but I think I got it on sale.

[BentRod]

oh, for interest sake

OldSchoolOrange is a licensed mechanic. he does some pretty good work I think

[spyug]

Thanks for all the information guys. Engine work is really not in the realm of doable unless I do it all myself. I cannot afford to farm it out and stay inside the budget of around $500 complete ( over the cost of the bike).

I have spoken with several mechanics today including one of my guys who is a former army tank mechanic and my motorcycle wrench and the prevailing opinion is now to button it back up and see what happens.

I have the additional engine to play with so I'm sure we can get one running well enought to get it moving.

Before you all go condemning me as a cheapskate ( which I am by the way) I took on this project as an exercise to see if I could resurrect a bike within a strict budget this time. It is not a bike I'm drawn to ( I always thought they were butt ugly ) and it will be sold on completion after I ride it around the block. If it were to be a keeper I'd have a damned the expense attitude...trust me.

The overall idea is to give myself something to do over the winter months but also to make a little money to get me to something I really want.

Thanks for all the good info and ideas.

Cheers,
Spyug.

[rustybronco]

Repair on the cheap

If cost is the issue, get a base gasket, head gasket, cam cover gasket, or a complete aftermarket kit. or, if you have the time to wait, get a complete gasket seat "on the cheep" off of E-bay.

then free up the rings, de-glaze the cylinders, depress each of the valves, check the faces and seats for rust and (or) pitting and if it all looks good, slam it back together.

if you are really trying to do it on "the cheap" just buy the base and cam cover gasket and try re-using the head gasket. (not recommended)

[posplayr]

FYI, Vesrah isn't OEM and the Vesrah gasket kit is the subject of many of those horror stories, I have one of those stories myself.

I assume U did your own DD