gas gauge sendng unit

[jn6967]

I HATE THESE wireless internet connections and I HATE typing esspecially RETYPING!!!!!

Sorry had to vent, I had typed this all out once and the router decided to kick me off the internet......ugh

Anyways....

It seems the PO of my 82 gs850gl had kreemed the tank with the sending unit in place and does not work.

I took it out and tried to clean it and with my very limited knowledge of the multi meter I checked for ohms across the unit.

What I found was that I get a reading of infinate or about 4.7. depending on which lead is where.

So, what is the proper way to check this gauge? Is it junk now that it has been kreemed? Does anyone have a sending unit they dont want?

Are the sending units the same for all years and models or are they different? Which ones might work for mine?

Thanks for the help and this had better work or my wife will need a new laptop!!!!

Outfernow

Jon

[Redman]

Comeonbackagain, Jon,

Hello agaiin.

SHould not matter which lead is where. IS only two on sender. Will not matter which meter leads to which sender leads.

Oh, maybe you mean where meter leads plugged into meter. You want meter leads plugged into the COM and the V-ohm-mA (ohm is that omega greek letter symbol). Or maybe your meter has a plug specifically for ohm. And you want the dial turned to ohm.

But One way to check if meter set up properly for measuring ohms is to touch meter leads together, should read about nothing, zero. If digital meter, notice somewhere on display if indication in ohms or 1K ohms or 100Kohms (K meaning kilo or thousands) or 1Mohms (M meaining mega or million). With leads not touching, open, meter should read many many thousand ohm, many mega ohms, infinite (most digital meters will flash a 1 on left side). So touch meter leads together, look at meter for a few seconds, and then hold leads apart and see how meter responds, then know meter is setup properly to measure ohms (resistance).

But infinate is not good reading for a sender, but maybe just not good connection with meter leads to sender leads.
4.7 is good (assuming 4.7 ohms, not 4.7 100K ohms, not 4.7 Mohms) but should also change as you move the sender unit lever/float.

Disconnect the Yel/Blk wire and the ground wire (blk/wht) wire of the sender from the bike wiring. Connect ohm meter leads to those sender leads (not the bike wire harnes leads), should not matter which meter lead to which sender lead. SHould measure 0.5 (just about about zero) or 118 ohms* or somewhere inbetween, and change between that 0.5 and 118 as move the sender unit float/lever up and down. That is a test of the sender unit.

* 0.5 to 118 ohm per my Clymer manaul for 79-84 850G, 1000G and 1100G.
Suzuki factory manaul for 82 1100G says: Full= 1-5 ohm, 1/2 full = 25-40ohm, empty= 100-120 ohms.

Could aslo talk about test of the bike wiring and the instrument guage, but that not what you are asking.

<<later note. Oh, I see you said reading of "4.7", so must be a digital meter.

[jn6967]

Comeonbackagain, Jon,

Hello agaiin.

SHould not matter which lead is where. IS only two on sender. Will not matter which meter leads to which sender leads.

Oh, maybe you mean where meter leads plugged into meter. You want meter leads plugged into the COM and the V-ohm-mA (ohm is that omega greek letter symbol). Or maybe your meter has a plug specifically for ohm. And you want the dial turned to ohm.

But One way to check if meter set up properly for measuring ohms is to touch meter leads together, should read about nothing, zero. If digital meter, notice somewhere on display if indication in ohms or 1K ohms or 100Kohms (K meaning kilo or thousands) or 1Mohms (M meaining mega or million). With leads not touching, open, meter should read many many thousand ohm, many mega ohms, infinite (most digital meters will flash a 1 on left side). So touch meter leads together, look at meter for a few seconds, and then hold leads apart and see how meter responds, then know meter is setup properly to measure ohms (resistance).

But infinate is not good reading for a sender, but maybe just not good connection with meter leads to sender leads.
4.7 is good (assuming 4.7 ohms, not 4.7 100K ohms, not 4.7 Mohms) but should also change as you move the sender unit lever/float.

Disconnect the Yel/Blk wire and the ground wire (blk/wht) wire of the sender from the bike wiring. Connect ohm meter leads to those sender leads (not the bike wire harnes leads), should not matter which meter lead to which sender lead. SHould measure 0.5 (just about about zero) or 118 ohms* or somewhere inbetween, and change between that 0.5 and 118 as move the sender unit float/lever up and down. That is a test of the sender unit.

* 0.5 to 118 ohm per my Clymer manaul for 79-84 850G, 1000G and 1100G.
Suzuki factory manaul for 82 1100G says: Full= 1-5 ohm, 1/2 full = 25-40ohm, empty= 100-120 ohms.

Could aslo talk about test of the bike wiring and the instrument guage, but that not what you are asking.

<<later note. Oh, I see you said reading of "4.7", so must be a digital meter.

OK I guess maybe I am not as dumb about this as I think. I had my meter set to 20 ohms as I thought 2 would be too low and 100 would be too high. Anyways, I was getting 4.7 with the ignition ON. It would not change with the movement of the float. If I swithched the leads around I would get infinate. OK let me see if I got this right. I should disconnect the sending unit from the wire harrness on the bike, right? Then check for resistance (ohms) across those two wire coming from the sending unit, NOT the bike. Right? I SHOULD get a reading if I do that? Yes? Well I just did that and I dont get anything, nothing ,zippo, zilch, nada. I made sure there was a good connection with the leads but no reading. So, if I should get a reading and I dont get a reading that means the unit is junk? Next step?

Thanks for the help Redman.

Jon

[Redman]

OK I guess maybe I am not as dumb about this as I think. I had my meter set to 20 ohms as I thought 2 would be too low and 100 would be too high. Anyways, I was getting 4.7 with the ignition ON. It would not change with the movement of the float. If I swithched the leads around I would get infinate. OK let me see if I got this right. I should disconnect the sending unit from the wire harrness on the bike, right? Then check for resistance (ohms) across those two wire coming from the sending unit, NOT the bike. Right? I SHOULD get a reading if I do that? Yes? Well I just did that and I dont get anything, nothing ,zippo, zilch, nada. I made sure there was a good connection with the leads but no reading. So, if I should get a reading and I dont get a reading that means the unit is junk? Next step?

Thanks for the help Redman.

Jon

Yes, sender unit disconnected from bike wiring. Meter connected to sender unit only. Not at all connected to bike wirinig, dont matter if ignition on off, bike can be miles away. Are testing the characteristincs of the sender unit, the sender unit only. Meter on ohms, you say you have a 100 ohm scale. How about a 500 or 1000 ohms? Expecting to read something from either 1 ohm or less to about 120 ohms, so maybe need to select a range higher than 100.

Now be more specific what you mean by "nothing, zippo, nada". You mean zero ohms (same as meter leads connected together)? Or you mean infinte ohms (same as meter leads apart, not touching)?

Either way is not good indication for the sender. BUt one is a different problem than other, and one might be fixable. Other folks might chime in and say what they have done (I never had to).

The ohm reading should change as move the lever. And you say it doesnt so that doesnt sound good either.

Have seen other postings where they had the infinte reading (meaning no connection at all, complete open,) and they somehow opened the sender unit and cleaned up some contacts and bent some holder or finger or something, so the brush touched the resistor windings, and then it worked. But I cant tell you anything about how to open it or how to seal it back up. And being that it is an Electrical thing inside a gas tank, dont know how much you or I want to mess with it anyway.

Tell us more what you find.

.

[jn6967]

Redman, Thanks for all the help. You've helped my understanding alot.

The reading on meter does not change at all when I connect the leads to the sending unit. I looked up the instructions for my meter (I know, not very manly to look up instructions) and it says it should read 000 with the leads touching each other. It does not mention anything about the leads being apart, but the reading is still 000. I know the meter works as I have used it for other things with success. I have even checked the fuse and the battery in the meter, all is good.

So, my next step is to "borrow" a meter from work and test it with that and if that dont work i am just going to try and replace it. Do you know if other models or years would work?

Thanks again

Jon

[1948man]

If you go to BikeCliff's site ,http://members.dslextreme.com/users/bikecliff/ There is a tutorial on repairing the fuel gauge about half way down on the right side of the page.

[Redman]

.......
.......... I looked up the instructions for my meter (I know, not very manly to look up instructions) and it says it should read 000 with the leads touching each other. It does not mention anything about the leads being apart, but the reading is still 000.
.......
.........
Jon

Jon,

Hey, we are making some progress.

If meter is on the ohm (resistance) scale, and leads plugged in correctley; something should change when have leads together (zero ohms) to when leads apart (infinte ohms). And since it doesnt, then, yah, something is suspect with meter or how you are using it. So lets not make any determination about your sender unit untill we straightn out the situation with the meter.

You say you can borrow a meter from work. Maybe take yours into work and have someone (electrician, technician) look at it. Make sure they understand that you are trying to measure resistance (ohms).

When you say it indicates 000 and nothing changes when touch leads together, that sounds more like meter is on a voltage scale or something. And 20 and 100 dont sound like ohm scales to me.

Or maybe you can post what brand & model of meter you have, and maybe we can find something online. Then can help you more specifically.

Plenty of folks here willing to help.

And, oh, have you stated what the gas gauge showed on instrument cluster when it was all connected? Below empty, Empty, somewhere in middle or Full?

.

[jn6967]

Redman, you said.......

"When you say it indicates 000 and nothing changes when touch leads together, that sounds more like meter is on a voltage scale or something. And 20 and 100 dont sound like ohm scales to me."

And just to reassure you the meter is on the ohm scale and the ranges are 2,20,200 and 2000. The meter is as old as dirt and you knows what brand it is. It works for everything else I have ever needed it to. BUT that does not mean it is not broken.

I checked out the "how to repair your sending unit" on bikecliffs web page and have follwed his instructions to no avail. Still nothing. I am at work now and I'll catch the maintence guys in the morning for a meter. Hell, I might even bring the sending unit to work tomorrow night and play with it here!!!! During lunch of course.....

I am not very opptimistic about this because of all the "kreem" that is on the unit, but I'll keep my fingers crossed.

[Redman]

....
....
And just to reassure you the meter is on the ohm scale and the ranges are 2,20,200 and 2000. The meter is as old as dirt and you knows what brand it is. It works for everything else I have ever needed it to. BUT that does not mean it is not broken.
....
....

Jon,

Yah, now that you mention it again, I have seen digital meters with scales of 2, 20, 200 ectera.
For a range setting of 2; the digits on the display can be .000 thru 1.999.
For a setting of 200; the digits can be 00.0 thru 199.9

YEs, we are kinda getting off track. You are asking about testing your sender unit, and we are getting off track on a discussion of using a meter.

Yes, the fact that the sender has been creamed makes the sender quite suspect.

The real way to test the sender is to measure the ohms.

And after no sucsess with trying to repair the sender; that brings up your other question about how interchagable are senders from various models. I dont have an answer for that based on any experience. Other than finding the Suzuki part number, and using that in some cross reference (I have heard that Babbitts website has such a crosss reference of "what does it fit")

And I can mention that there is one way to check all the rest of the gas level gauge system (meaning everything except the sender; all the bike wiring and the gauge in the instrument cluster).
- disconnect both wires from the sender
- find a scrap of small wire that can be used for a jumper, or maybe a small nail.
- turn ignition to ON and leave on
- notice that guge reads empty (or maybe below empty)
- use the jumper jumper wire or a small nail and connect together the bikes yel/blk wire to the bikes blk/wht wire.
- notice that the gauge reads full
- remove jumper.
- notice that guage retruns to empty (or below)
If the guage responds like this, then you know that everything else is okay and the problem must then be the sender unit.

.

[jn6967]

Redman, update,

I have borrowed my buddies meter and it did show infinate with the leads apart and zero with the leads connected. So, with that test I know the meter is good. I then jumped the wires on the bike and the gauge went to full. Removed the jumper and went back to empty. Thanks for that tip. I know the wiring on the chassis is good.
I put the meter on the leads from the sender and it still showed infinate.
Not looking too good is it? You mentioned before that different readings would mean different things. What does this mean? Thanks again for the help and the tips.

Jon

[DPage]

For the record, the Clymer manual says the resistance range is 0.5 to 118 ohms. From my practical experience, the tank gauge reads 11 ohms when full, and 110 ohms when empty. That happened when I had the luxury of a new empty OEM tank, turning it upside down and rightside up, with the sensor clunking up and down inside the tank.

[Redman]

.....
.....I put the meter on the leads from the sender and it still showed infinate.
Not looking too good is it? You mentioned before that different readings would mean different things. What does this mean?
....
...

Jon,

Infinite means is not any connection, is open, this wire not connected to anything that is connected to the other wire, same as meter leads held aprt not touching anything. More specifically it means that the meter puts out some voltage and measure no current flow. That is how a ohm meter measures resistance; it puts out some voltage and then measures the current and based on the calculation of voltage and current determines the resistance, the more current means the less resitance, the less current the more resitance, no current means infinite resitance (open), maximum current is zero resistance (short). Could also do the same thing (and maybe it does) by putting out a small current and measure the voltage, the higher the voltage the higher the resitance, the lower the voltage the lesser the resistance, no voltage is zero resitance (short), max voltage is infinite resistance (open).
THis is why your meter might work to measure voltage, but not work to measure resistance. When measuring resitance (ohms) is the only time the meter has to put out something, all other times it is only measuring what it recieves.
Hum, speaking of definitions, I suppose this meets the definition of : Ask what time it is and someone tells you how to build a clock.

About your sender and what this infinite resitance might mean:
One wire of the sender should be connected inside to a brush or a finger type thing (maybe call wiper) that touches and moves along a the length of a resisitor. And the other wire of the sender should be connected inside to the end of the resistor. So when the brush-finger thing moves to the far end of the resisitor you should see all the resistance of the resisitor (approx 120 ohms), when moves to the middle should see about half the resistance, and when moves to the end closest to the the other wire then should see about zero resistance as if the two wires are just about touching each other. That is what it should be, but your test shows infinite resistance, like nothing is connected. The knee bone aint connected to the shin bone, or the shin bone aint connected to the ankel bone, or the ankel bone aint connected to the toe bone.

Have not had this experience myself, but I understand that Most likley suspect is that wiper finger brush thing isnt making contact to the resisitor. Either worn away so not touching, or some buildup of material (cream stuff?) or maybe dried up lubricant. I havent seen BassCliff tutorial (looked, could not find, duhhh), but I suspect using some contact cleaner or some solvent and/or just bending something so makes better contact is the first thing to try. Other suspect is the resistor materail has detererated and failed, I dont know if the resistor is a winding of wire or what. Other suspect could be an internal connection where the wire is suppose to connect.

If you have the sender open, and want to explore further, and still have the meter whos ohm scale works, this is what I would do: You could put one meter lead on one wire and then probe around inside the sender with the other meter lead and see where you loose/regain the connection (metr measuring ohms). Then try it on the other wire, and probe around inside the sender with other lead and see where loose/regain the connections. Maybe both those test indicate the same point. Or try both meter leads between different points inside the sender. Untill you find where you are loosing the connections, we are just quessing at what the fix might be. When you find specifically where you loose the connection, then can determine what/if the fix might be. Also keep in mind that when probing around inside, that putting the meter probe on something might be pushing something around and temperarily change something, just be aware of that.

Maybe your meter has a continuity tester mode that beeps when there is any connection. That might make this testing inside easier. But maybe it doesnt beep if 120 ohms.

Tell us more what you find.

I know my discussion here is very verbose, I could just blurt out something, but you seem to want to understand, so I dont mind trying to explain for your better understanding.

.

>>>>>Later Note.
If cream stuff got inside the sender, that would not be good, cuz that would mean that gas could/would also get inside. And I dont think it is supose to (dont really know), and seems like it should not.

.

[tkent02]

.

>>>>>Later Note.
If cream stuff got inside the sender, that would not be good, cuz that would mean that gas could/would also get inside. And I dont think it is supose to (dont really know), and seems like it should not.

.

Gas gets in there all the time, they are not sealed.

Sometimes the connection breaks where the wire is soldered to the base plate.

[Redman]

Gas gets in there all the time, they are not sealed.

Sometimes the connection breaks where the wire is soldered to the base plate.

Thanks Tom.

Yah, I had taken a sender unit out only once, and that was about 10 years ago, and have not taken a sender unit apart. So I dont really remember/know if sealed or not, which is why I stated it like I did. Thanks for clairifying, ah, er, okay..., Thanks for proving me wrong.

I am speaking mostly about the electrical troubleshooting aspect of this. I have worked with other level sensors in industrial controls.

Thanks for sharing your experince and specific knowlodge of the Suzuki sender unit. (I know you work on multiple bikes each year, and have for years).

Thanks for the tip about the wire breaking were soldered. Could Jon verify that by sight? Or maybe can verify that with meter (measuring ohms), one lead on wire and other lead probing inside the sender at that connection point. If the wire had come loose of the connection, Would that be repairable? Can have acsess to solder it back? I dont know, have not had a sender apart.

.

[Redman]

Redman, update,
...
...
I put the meter on the leads from the sender and it still showed infinate.
Not looking too good is it? ...
...Jon

Jon,

Here is some further info I have recently had become available to me. Is a cut-n-paste from someone who has been inside a Suzuki GS sender:
************* start of cut-n-paste**********
The wiper and resistor are typical, wire coil wrapped around a bar, the pivot for the arm is cheap and loses it's tension, the arm itself it brass and gets tarnished, the readings get erratic. The whole thing is submerged in fuel most of the time, the cover over the workings is not tight, just a stamped steel cover with little tabs bent to hold it together. I have had at least one with a bad soldered connection to the base plate.
************ end cut-n-paste *******
Sounds like a good description.
What is not stated, and must be assumed, is that the "wiper" is on the end of the "arm", and the "arm" is what holds the "wiper" against the resistor. And the "coil of wire" is the same thing as the "resistor". And I would think that "the bar" (that the coil of wire is wrapped around) will need to be isolated/insulated (open, infinite resistance) from the coil of wire. If not, that could be the cause of zero ohm readings regardles of where the float is. BUt that is not what you say your problem is. Your problem is the infinte readings, so more like the wiper not making any connection to the resistor or a wire not connected to the connections.

With these understanding, and an ohm meter, I think you/we can furter track down were the problem is, and maybe devise a repair from there.


Tom,
Thanks again.

Dave "Redman"