oil pressure drop @ hard throttle

[paco13]

Hello,
a little background info. 1166 fresh top end,perf. cams/valves,top end oiler from Katmans bud, 750 oil pump gears, brand new oil pump.

Now bike runs great, but;

When I get on the throttle hard or get the revs up high the oil light flickers.
If I run the bike with 1qt. extra oil it doesn't come on and is fine.
Any thought?
Running the extra oil is creating probs with the clutch (dragging,creeping etc.)
On the oil sump p/u is there a seal between the p/u/screen and the eng. case? mine did not have one.

While on the oil topic, the top oiler leaks @ the banjo fittings on the head.
the alum. washers don't appear to work, any suggested replacements?

Also what torque should those Aluminum banjo bolts be set to?
Kit offers know info, and stock bolts were steel.

Thanks in advance.

[Tarbash 27]

So how much oil do you have in the motor? I would think it would need a little extra siince the external lines and such will be full of oil and you would have 2 ways of getting oil to the topend. Your also pumping oil faster so you need a faster supply of oil, but the oil still drains back in to the pan at the same speed. So I would assume you would some more oil. Are you checking the oil with the bike standing straight up?

As for the banjo bolts, maybe try copper washers.

Where are you in NY?

[paco13]

I was thinking the same things, but I have to run 5qts. for the light not to come on, seemed a little much just to fill the oiler lines and extra flow.
Figured others here might have experienced similar with this set up.
Plus the clutch drag is a pain in the a$$. no nuetral while running, hard into first, creeping in gear. If I adjust clutch tighter then I get slippage @ heavy throttle shifts.

[Tarbash 27]

If its creeping in gear and you have these problems, than your clutch is not adjusted properly, that may case the hard into neutral and hard into gear. If you than adjust it so you can fix these problems but than it slips. I would think you probably have some worn out clutch discs. Have you pulled off the clutch cover to see if the clutch basket is tight? The clutch hub nut is known to come loose. What oil are you running?

[paco13]

Everything is new in the clutch, probs with clutch go away when oil at normal level.

[Nessism]

The oil pressure sensor is more of a flow sensor since the sensor is just a metal plunger that is spring loaded to seat down over the main oil feed port; oil flows up though the port and pushes the plunger out of the way thus disturbing the ground circuit for the light. If the light is flickering, and it's not an electrical problem, you have a serious problem.

My suggestion is to get a gauge and measure the pressure. I'd disconnect the top end oiler and let oil flow up though the studs while testing the pressure off the base of the cylinder. It's pretty easy to fashion a gauge setup by drilling and tapping an old oil galley plug and installing a cheap VDO fuel pressure gauge - I made one for only about $20 that way. Once you establish whether or not you have good oil pressure with the stock oil plumbing system, you can try to hook your top end oiler back up and see what happens then. To measure is to know.

[posplayr]

Hello,
a little background info. 1166 fresh top end,perf. cams/valves,top end oiler from Katmans bud, 750 oil pump gears, brand new oil pump.

Now bike runs great, but;

.

This my same configuration on my ED but I also have a mid 80's GS550 oil cooler running from the stock banjo bolts.

Hello,

When I get on the throttle hard or get the revs up high the oil light flickers.
If I run the bike with 1qt. extra oil it doesn't come on and is fine.
Any thought?
.

As Ed suggests get a VDO gauge. RenoBruce sells them with the proper adapters or you can rig somthing up your self. What I find is that running a 10-40W oil, I have to be careful when cold as there is a bunch more pressure. My VDO got beat to death from the engine vibration, so I working on mounting a lit 2 1/8" VDO guage on the handlebar now. When the engine mount 1.5" did work it pressure should go to 9-15 psi cold and 6 psi typical at 5000 RPM hot.

When running cold you can sprout leaks at 9-5 psi

On the oil sump p/u is there a seal between the p/u/screen and the eng. case? mine did not have one.

.

You guage will confim these levels. If not make sure that rubber o ring in the pan is on there. There is also a rubber gasket for behind the oil pump as well. see attachment

Running the extra oil is creating probs with the clutch (dragging,creeping etc.)
.

Did you replace the inner and outer basket? They can get grooves due to the fingers cutting into the baskets and make the clutch drag on release. Also best to use OEM steels (Non 83 ED/ESD) and fibers as the aftermarket ones with 10 fibers are thinner and cut into the hubs more. See attachment

While on the oil topic, the top oiler leaks @ the banjo fittings on the head.
the alum. washers don't appear to work, any suggested replacements?

Also what torque should those Aluminum banjo bolts be set to?
Kit offers know info, and stock bolts were steel.

Thanks in advance.

I forget the torque, but I have had leakage problems also. My issues are mainly at the Cooller banjos. Thnaks to Ed pointing these out I have some
Dowty Seals on order; not cheap but have a very high pressure rating.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EAR-178109ERL/

Good Luck

[Nessism]

My VDO got beat to death from the engine vibration, so I working on mounting a lit 2 1/8" VDO guage on the handlebar now.

The needle on my VDO gauge doesn't go back to zero anymore after only a short time in service. They are pretty cheap so no big deal but they are pretty crappy gauges I think. I only use it to confirm the oil pressure is there and then I take it off. http://www.jegs.com/p/VDO/VDO-Fuel-P...45270/10002/-1

[posplayr]

The needle on my VDO gauge doesn't go back to zero anymore after only a short time in service. They are pretty cheap so no big deal but they are pretty crappy gauges I think. I only use it to confirm the oil pressure is there and then I take it off. http://www.jegs.com/p/VDO/VDO-Fuel-P...45270/10002/-1

Ed,

the VDO 1.5" guage is a "Bourdon gauge". It is a quality guage but it is just not suitable for high vibration environments. The reason that the guage is not was very clear after opening my busted guage. The two rotation joints on item #4 in the attached picture were "wollered out" from the vibration. This small amount of slop made the needle float.

4.) Link joining pivot pin to lever (5) with pins to allow joint rotation.

I think the reason Bruce's gauges have more longevity is that be mounts the guage on an adapter with a big rubber o-ring. The O ring provides some amount of isolation if you do not over tighten.

I had a 48" Stainless steel line made to go up to my handlebar for a lighted guage. Will get pics after I get the guage. Sumitt sent me the wrong guage required it sent back before sending a new out , then dottled 3 days and finally sent it ground from Ohio. Total time 15 days for a 15 psi guage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_measurement

A Bourdon gauge uses a coiled tube, which, as it expands due to pressure increase causes a rotation of an arm connected to the tube. In 1849 the Bourdon tube pressure gauge was patented in France by Eugene Bourdon.
The pressure sensing element is a closed coiled tube connected to the chamber or pipe in which pressure is to be sensed. As the gauge pressure increases the tube will tend to uncoil, while a reduced gauge pressure will cause the tube to coil more tightly. This motion is transferred through a linkage to a gear train connected to an indicating needle. The needle is presented in front of a card face inscribed with the pressure indications associated with particular needle deflections. In a barometer, the Bourdon tube is sealed at both ends and the absolute pressure of the ambient atmosphere is sensed. Differential Bourdon gauges use two Bourdon tubes and a mechanical linkage that compares the readings.
In the following illustrations the transparent cover face of the pictured combination pressure and vacuum gauge has been removed and the mechanism removed from the case. This particular gauge is a combination vacuum and pressure gauge used for automotive diagnosis:

I'm not sure what the difference is for the oil filled guages unless they provide some damping for the mechanism.

When i was doing that small oil passage damping port, the vibration was irreducible because the needle was basically floating by the time I tried to install it.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=140086

Jim

[Nessism]

Ed,

the VDO 1.5" guage is a "Bourdon gauge". It is a quality guage but it is just not suitable for high vibration environments. The reason that the guage is not was very clear after opening my busted guage. The two rotation joints on item #4 in the attached picture were "wollered out" from the vibration. This small amount of slop made the needle float.

4.) Link joining pivot pin to lever (5) with pins to allow joint rotation.

I think the reason Bruce's gauges have more longevity is that be mounts the guage on an adapter with a big rubber o-ring. The O ring provides some amount of isolation if you do not over tighten.

I had a 48" Stainless steel line made to go up to my handlebar for a lighted guage. Will get pics after I get the guage. Sumitt sent me the wrong guage required it sent back before sending a new out , then dottled 3 days and finally sent it ground from Ohio. Total time 15 days for a 15 psi guage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_measurement

I'm not sure what the difference is for the oil filled guages unless they provide some damping for the mechanism.

When i was doing that small oil passage damping port, the vibration was irreducible because the needle was basically floating by the time I tried to install it.

Jim

Jim,

You sure you want all that complication on the bike just so you can watch the oil pressure? The oiling system is bullet proof, but running tubes half way around the bike sounds risky.

[posplayr]

Jim,

You sure you want all that complication on the bike just so you can watch the oil pressure? The oiling system is bullet proof, but running tubes half way around the bike sounds risky.

Ed,

Yes with the 750 gears, I can't ride my ED to work (it is only 1 mile) as any excess RPM (when cold) cause my oil pressure to peak and it it leaks one place or another. We are talking about a plastic coated SS line from the same port that Bruces kit would mount.

These guys make me up a line plastic jacketed SS -3AN line. No different than SS Brake line.

http://www.paragonperformance.com/ASSYS.HTML

This is what it looks like with Bruce's original guage Kit. Inserts Male Female inline with his kit. The simple thing to do is to mount this type of guage to the handle bar using a mirror mount from a spare clutch perch. I'm going lighted 2 1/8" guage there are no lighted 1.5" guages. I'm fabricating something different

Jim

[Guest]

This discussion has me wondering if the 750 gears and higher pressure make sense. Fixing leaks and cleaning up the aftermath can't be much fun.

[Guest]

Yes with the 750 gears, I can't ride my ED to work (it is only 1 mile) as any excess RPM (when cold) cause my oil pressure to peak and it it leaks one place or another. We are talking about a plastic coated SS line from the same port that Bruces kit would mount.
Jim

This discussion has me wondering if the 750 gears and higher pressure make sense. Fixing leaks and cleaning up the aftermath can't be much fun.

FWIW, I have been running these gears since '03, and with almost 20K, the engine has been tight as a drum.....no leaks anywhere, except for the tach-drive which was fixed with a new O-ring. Maybe the issue has something to do with your other mods (bore kit, cams etc) as I'm running the stock cams (re-degreed with APE sprockets), stock bore and 36mm carbs. No pressure gauge on my bike, so I do not know how much the difference is over the stock gears, but my understanding when I did some reading back in '03 was that the pressure increase wasn't that significant, and the increase in oil volume was around 30%.

[posplayr]

This discussion has me wondering if the 750 gears and higher pressure make sense. Fixing leaks and cleaning up the aftermath can't be much fun.

Yea, me also. I did change to a new oil pump as well and will be getting the Dowty seals for the cooler banjos. Once my new gauage is installed i will watch the pressure when cold to make sure i don't over pressure it. No issue i think when warm.

[posplayr]

FWIW, I have been running these gears since '03, and with almost 20K, the engine has been tight as a drum.....no leaks anywhere, except for the tach-drive which was fixed with a new O-ring. Maybe the issue has something to do with your other mods (bore kit, cams etc) as I'm running the stock cams (re-degreed with APE sprockets), stock bore and 36mm carbs. No pressure gauge on my bike, so I do not know how much the difference is over the stock gears, but my understanding when I did some reading back in '03 was that the pressure increase wasn't that significant, and the increase in oil volume was around 30%.

Well there have been different issues. I never have split my cases and the case bolts would selectively leak. I have removed most of the offenders and used Black RTV to seal them. I have also replaced the ignition seal and think that is pretty good once warm.

On my cooler I did not have the Braded AN lines with AC fittings. I do now but with the GSXR conversion it will not fit. I have an older GS550 cooler that the PC installed. Improvised hoses leaked inside a heat protective covering. I now went back to some NOS OEM GS550 hoses, but suspect the Banjo seals were not good. The new Dowty Seals should solve that.

When my gauge was working the pressure was always way up.