Oil Cooler Effectiveness

[Guest]

So I'm planning on taking a camping trip out to Death Valley in April or May, which is right around the time daytime temps start to hit 100 +. Now I'm not worried about me (I lived in Sudan for 4 years, and I'm used to the heat), but I'm wondering how my air/oil cooled GS will do in that heat. So, how effective is the bike stock in that temperature range, or should I get an oil cooler? Or should I just avoid the desert altogether with an air/oil cooled bike?

Also, what recommendations do y'all have for keeping cool in the desert on a motorcycle? Or rather just being safer? Thanks.


-x01660

[CivilRock]

What kind of bike do you have?
What if any mods have you made?
Do you have a oil temp gauge on board?
Do you have a IR temp gauge?

Without knowing anything about you or your bike, I would say you'll be fine. There's millions of oil cooled bikes that operate just fine in hot weather.

Don't let the oil get over 250F and you'll be fine. Buy a $12 IR temp gauge from Harbor Freight and check it on your trip.

I bought a 1995 GSX600 Katana oil cooler from ebay for $29 and fitted it to my bike without too much hassle. But I plan on some heat producing modifications in the future, and I needed something to fill the oil ports in the motor anyway.

-Kevin

[x01660]

What kind of bike do you have?
What if any mods have you made?
Do you have a oil temp gauge on board?
Do you have a IR temp gauge?

Without knowing anything about you or your bike, I would say you'll be fine. There's millions of oil cooled bikes that operate just fine in hot weather.

Don't let the oil get over 250F and you'll be fine. Buy a $12 IR temp gauge from Harbor Freight and check it on your trip.

I bought a 1995 GSX600 Katana oil cooler from ebay for $29 and fitted it to my bike without too much hassle. But I plan on some heat producing modifications in the future, and I needed something to fill the oil ports in the motor anyway.

-Kevin

I've got a 84 GS 1150E, and I do have a temp gague on the cluster.


-x01660

[posplayr]

For big block bikes, you get a big benefit in operating temperature by going to a Series R/R.
Read about it here.

You should be able to find Chefs posts for which he just installed a Compufire on his 1229.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=161397

[CivilRock]

Doesn't your bike already have an external remote oil cooler? Are you asking if you need a bigger one?

If you're running stock, the bike will be fine.

I don't do well in the heat at all. I prefer 35F to 90F. But I've ridden in 125F+ heat a ton racing supermoto and road racing (track temps of 140F). It gets amazingly hot in full leathers with a fire breathing beast under you while you're doing the equivalent of running a marathon. Also have done several cross country rides (OR to FL and back) in what I would call tremendous heat. TX in the summer is brutal. Best thing ever is just to soak down my T-shirt (and underwear) with water and carry a 2 liter camelback to keep hydrated. I bought some no-name backpack online with a 2 liter bladder for $14 years ago, and use it all the time. I remember one time taking a mouth full of water out of the camel back and just letting it dribble out of my mouth onto my chest it was so freaking hot.

In one answer: Lots of Water.

-Kevin

[rustybronco]

You might just be able to get away with a good synthetic oil. One that can handle the heat without breaking down.

Check bobistheoilguy.com

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/

[x01660]

For big block bikes, you get a big benefit in operating temperature by going to a Series R/R.
Read about it here.

You should be able to find Chefs posts for which he just installed a Compufire on his 1229.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...d.php?t=161397

I'll have to scope it out.

Oh, and it's Zak, BTW, Jim...


-x01660

[posplayr]

I'll have to scope it out.

Oh, and it's Zak, BTW, Jim...


-x01660

Ok Zak, did not jump out at me.

Then ask Bill about which comes first, cooler or Series R/R.


If you are worried about it, there are small 550 cooler on ebay for cheap that will fit with a little bit of stretching. I might even have one complete one if I put the 1150 cooler on mine. You would just need banjo bolts and to plug the cover.

This is basically what is on my 1166. It used to run warm, but with the Series R/R it usually does not go above 210 DegF; 220DegF max.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Suzuki-GS-GS550-GS550ES-Used-Oil-Cooler-Hoses-1983-/151220524795?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23357216fb&vxp=mtr

I'm just concerned about the Tucson Summer heat. It is beautiful 70-80's now, but ...........

[chef1366]

They are effective
I showed you the cooler I was going to install on your engine.
Motor
83 GS1100E, 1150 crank, 1150 barrels, .5 over pistons and stock head with cut intake valves.

[x01660]

They are effective
I showed you the cooler I was going to install on your engine.
Motor
83 GS1100E, 1150 crank, 1150 barrels, .5 over pistons and stock head with cut intake valves.

You are so epically awesome, I can't even alliterate it with words.


-x01660

[ArttuH]

For big block bikes, you get a big benefit in operating temperature by going to a Series R/R.
Read about it here.

You should be able to find Chefs posts for which he just installed a Compufire on his 1229.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...d.php?t=161397

I know this has been debated here earlier and there is also some empirical evidence but I still have hard time believing that the regulator could drop engine temp significantly.

Maximum power output of the generator is about 250W so I think in the worst case the stator can produce about 250-300W heat power. On the other hand at steady 60mph speed the engine probably produces about 10-20kW mechanical power. Rule of thumb says that one third of total energy of consumed fuel goes out with the exhaust gases, one goes to heat to the engine and the rest to the mechanical power. So then total heating power to loose through engine cooling would be around 10-20kW. Compared to this 300W from the stator is pretty much negligible.

Situation might be slightly different at low speed city traffic or when the engine is idling. Then total heat power produced by the engine is significantly lower and also cooling is less efficient due to slow air flow. In this case the stator heat power may have noticeable part in the engine thermal balance.

Any ways, this is quite interesting topic. Maybe I should experiment this by myself too. Do I recall correctly that there are some OEM series regulators available for reasonable money, made by Shindengen? That could be worth of trying.

[chef1366]

I know this has been debated here earlier and there is also some empirical evidence but I still have hard time believing that the regulator could drop engine temp significantly.

Maximum power output of the generator is about 250W so I think in the worst case the stator can produce about 250-300W heat power. On the other hand at steady 60mph speed the engine probably produces about 10-20kW mechanical power. Rule of thumb says that one third of total energy of consumed fuel goes out with the exhaust gases, one goes to heat to the engine and the rest to the mechanical power. So then total heating power to loose through engine cooling would be around 10-20kW. Compared to this 300W from the stator is pretty much negligible.

Situation might be slightly different at low speed city traffic or when the engine is idling. Then total heat power produced by the engine is significantly lower and also cooling is less efficient due to slow air flow. In this case the stator heat power may have noticeable part in the engine thermal balance.

Any ways, this is quite interesting topic. Maybe I should experiment this by myself too. Do I recall correctly that there are some OEM series regulators available for reasonable money, made by Shindengen? That could be worth of trying.

I saw the difference when my temperature gauge stopped climbing to the spot with the shunting R/R.
I was pleased as punch since my bored out engine runs hot and I am very open to trying ways to keep it cool.
It worked!

[tkent02]

I'm so curious about this, just bought a series regulator for my 550, whats on there now is a big Shendigan shunt unit. I'm going to rig it so I can switch back and forth on the fly. Ride a while on the series one, then switch to the shunt to see what the oil temp does.

Still need to figure out what to use for a temp gauge… Any ideas?

[posplayr]

I know this has been debated here earlier [#1]and there is also some empirical evidence but I still have hard time believing that the regulator could drop engine temp significantly.

[#2]Maximum power output of the generator is about 250W so I think in the worst case the stator can produce about 250-300W heat power. On the other hand at steady 60mph speed the engine probably produces about 10-20kW mechanical power. Rule of thumb says that one third of total energy of consumed fuel goes out with the exhaust gases, one goes to heat to the engine and the rest to the mechanical power. [#3]So then total heating power to loose through engine cooling would be around 10-20kW. Compared to this 300W from the stator is pretty much negligible.

Situation might be slightly different at low speed city traffic or when the engine is idling. Then total heat power produced by the engine is significantly lower and also cooling is less efficient due to slow air flow. In this case the stator heat power may have noticeable part in the engine thermal balance.

Any ways, this is quite interesting topic. Maybe I should experiment this by myself too. Do I recall correctly that there are some OEM series regulators available for reasonable money, made by Shindengen? That could be worth of trying.

[1] "some empirical evidence" would be better characterized by "direct measurement" and "independent" verification.

[2]Firstly, your power analysis is somewhat simplified as it does not consider the hidden power dissipated in the stator, only the power being delivered to the load (how high of a temperature do you think an oil bathed stator needs to be to burn the thermal epoxy off of it???). It is stator power that heats the engine and not delivered power. As I have measured, calculated, plotted and posted. There is a big difference. A shunting R/R is dissipating more power in the stator than it is delivering. Based on that analysis, the SHUNT R/R dissipates about 350 watts in the stator while the Series only 125W. That is a total of 225W or a 1/3 of a hp.

[3]Second, despite how amazing it might be, the convective heat flow from the engine is proportional to the temperature differential between the engine and the ambient air. Air is not a particularly good conductor of heat and most of the heat is going out the tail pipe. So with what is left over and if there is any added heat to the engine you have to stretch the temperature differential between engine block and ambient to get rid of it. So in nominal numbers if ambient is 25degC and you are running at 135 degC that is a 110 degC difference. It only takes a 10% drop in heat dissipation to drop the temperature 10% of 110 or 11 degC (30 degF). That is what I saw on my CV 1166.

For a large cc motor, it really is much more of a thermal balancing act for what amounts to only relatively few therms. This conclusion is based on direct evidence of the temperature drops.

Put a Series R/R in and you will find out. I'm sure with your supercharger, you have a "super-charred" stator and elevated oil temps despite your northern clime.

[ArttuH]

[1] "some empirical evidence" would be better characterized by "direct measurement" and "independent" verification.

[2]Firstly, your power analysis is somewhat simplified as it does not consider the hidden power dissipated in the stator, only the power being delivered to the load (how high of a temperature do you think an oil bathed stator needs to be to burn the thermal epoxy off of it???). It is stator power that heats the engine and not delivered power. As I have measured, calculated, plotted and posted. There is a big difference. A shunting R/R is dissipating more power in the stator than it is delivering. Based on that analysis, the SHUNT R/R dissipates about 350 watts in the stator while the Series only 125W. That is a total of 225W or a 1/3 of a hp.

[3]Second, despite how amazing it might be, the convective heat flow from the engine is proportional to the temperature differential between the engine and the ambient air. Air is not a particularly good conductor of heat and most of the heat is going out the tail pipe. So with what is left over and if there is any added heat to the engine you have to stretch the temperature differential between engine block and ambient to get rid of it. So in nominal numbers if ambient is 25degC and you are running at 135 degC that is a 110 degC difference. It only takes a 10% drop in heat dissipation to drop the temperature 10% of 110 or 11 degC (30 degF). That is what I saw on my CV 1166.

For a large cc motor, it really is much more of a thermal balancing act for what amounts to only relatively few therms. This conclusion is based on direct evidence of the temperature drops.

Put a Series R/R in and you will find out. I'm sure with your supercharger, you have a "super-charred" stator and elevated oil temps despite your northern clime.

[2] Yes, it was simplified analysis since I was interested to get just a ballpark figure to estimate scale of heating power from the stator. So I can easily believe if you say it's 350W with a shunt regulator. However, this is a worst case situation when there is no load from the charging system and the regulator shunts everything to the stator, right? And when the load increases difference between the shunt and series regulators gets smaller.

[3] Correct. But based on my knowledge the total heat dissipation of the engine is approximately the same than the mechanical output power. So at 60mph cruising speed the heat dissipation would be about 10-20kW. Therefore that 10% reduction would be at least 1kW.

Actually I had a series R/R some years ago. I designed one when my original R/R went dead. I can't recall noticing any difference in oil temps with it though I wasn't specifically watching that. But I'm sure there wasn't 10°C drop, few degrees might have got away unnoticed. Later on when my series R/R broke and I changed to FET shunt R/R I also changed the whole engine at the same time so I couldn't compare temps.

But yes, it would be interesting to try again. I know very well that shunt regulators aren't too healthy for the stator so upgrade would make sense just because that. On the other hand my bike has quite a lot of electric load so probably difference wouldn't be that big.