Proper way to re-torque a bolt.

[Anonymous]

Tough guy? So, if you say what's on your mind you are a tough guy?

As for the mechanics - sure - who whouldn't rather have a clicker than a beam type? Try using a beam type in a hard to get to place where you can't read the dial.

As for accuracy, I sand by my earlier statements. Beam type have been used to build many engines that have been used in Indy, Bonneville, etc. If accuracy is the issue, how did those motors survive?

If money was a concern, I would buy a beam type and tap and die set over the clicker any day of the week. Using these tools I would get a far more accurate reading of torque than just using the clicker.

Which brings us to another point. Retorquing the heads after many years of service will not give accurate torque readings. The more accurate clicker type will give an accurate reading of torque on a set of dirty, corroded threads. Don't expect results any better than using a beam type.

[KEITH KRAUSE]

When I make a topic that is meant to help someone, I'm like anybody else, I'm going to word it based on my own experience and my own situation. It would take too much time to include "if, ands or buts" to try to cover everyone's different situation. My posts are often long as it is.
My torque wrench is an improved design over the pointer type, I can afford it, I have 3 of them to cover all ranges. I did not enjoy spending the money but I feel they're a good investment. I used to be notorious for over tightening things, so I bought them. I don't expect anyone to run out and buy one just because I SUGGESTED it. I realize some people don't have ANY tools.
It's true that pointer type wrenches were once the only choice available and they were a lot more accurate than just guessing. They had their time.
Now there's an improved tool, that's all. I'm not going to suggest using an inferior tool.
I noticed before you criticized another one of my topics, "Proper way to clean and lube a chain." This also was meant to try to help people, especially new owners. But you had to cut it up and say don't take the chain off. If that's the way you want to do it, fine. The way you do it is messier and less effective and you don't save any time by not wanting to take the master link off. That's just rushing the job. ANY chain manufacturer, dealer or good repair shop will say take the chain off.
Suggesting an IMPROVEMENT in someone's help topic is cool, it helps even more. But cutting up someone's topic just because you don't want to do it the right way is not helping anyone.
I don't take short cuts when working on my bike and I don't use screwdrivers for pry bars, as you asked earlier. I do what's best for the bike. I've owned my bike since new and this is the way I will always do things. Check out my bike, just click the WWW symbol below. It's 24 years old and has 118,000 miles and counting. I let the bike speak for my work habits.
I'll continue to make help topics, with other peoples best interests in mind.

[Anonymous]

Hmm, I guess this isn't really a forum, but the Keith Krause advanced school of motorcycle repair.

I suggest you go back and look at what I said in the 'Proper way to clean a chain post'. Yes, I did question the necessity to remove the chain, but I also complimented you on the overall content of the post. And I still stand by both remarks. I think if you post on a topic with the title 'Proper anything' then everyone in here should have a chance to review it and make comments. It was a good post overall, if you think that I was being too harsh for questioning the necessity to remove the chain to clean it, then I guess I don't know what to say.

You seem to be very touchy when someone questions a portion of your posts. In the future I will take that into account.

[KEITH KRAUSE]

I'm not touchy about someone questioning a part of my post, I'm touchy about someone trying to degrade it, even though all the information is true.
At least in the cases of torque wrenches and chain maintenance, you have lower standards. You criticize my standards only because you don't want to raise your own. Then you get defensive because you know you're wrong, but you keep trying to justify past comments. You even try insulting someone in an attempt to make them see things your way.
Your 'Keith Krause advanced school of MC repair' is just more of your defensive BS. Because I choose to do things the right way, you come up with words like that?
This is an open forum. It is meant to help. All you've done is disrupt it. You added your 2 cents and that's all it's worth.
This is my 500th post and you're the only negative experience I've had here. It's good to be open minded, you should try it sometime.

[Anonymous]

Keith, when you say that 'you try to do this the right way' and 'I have lower standards' from this last post and 'The cheap "pointer" kinds are a waste of money.' from the first post, are exactly the kind of comments that I was trying to correct.

Your post does not imply, it states in a factual manner that what you say is absolutely correct. You do not say 'in my opinion, the cheap ...'. You state it as FACT. That is what I was trying to correct in your post.

My first reply to your orignal post was merely a correction of the 'fact' stating that beam wrenches are a waiste of money. You came back with the reply that you use them as breaker bars - I guess to show your displeasure at my comment.

I am amazed that I have been able to accomplish all I have while doing things the wrong way - as opposed to the right way. Earlier, you stated that you are of 'average intelligence, no more, no less'. If that is the case, try listening, maybe you will learn something.

I guess you still don't see that, and to tell you the truth, I don't care anymore. I'm done with this post. If you wnat to carry this on, PM me.

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Do you always start your comments with "in my opinion"? No, of course not. We all just read and make our own decisions. If I sound like I'm stating 'facts', they're only in return of your 'facts'.
At least we learned some things here that you helped emphasize.
Fact: Click type wrenches are a better tool.
Fact: Taking your chain off is the best way to clean it.
Fact: You have lower standards when working on a bike.
Fact: You get upset trying to defend your lower standards.
Remember Swanny, open mind, you'll be better off.

[moto_dan]

[quote="KEITH KRAUSE"]
Fact: Click type wrenches are a better tool.
quote]

Not IMO, if you are speaking of accuracy, but if you are speaking of ease of use then I would agree. After following this thread and reading you and Swanny going back and forth I have to offer my .02 worth. Click type Torque wrenches need frequent calibration, beam type may need there pointer repostitioned to 0, but you don't have to send it out for calibration. Read the following post from another in a different forum. I found it interesting:

http://yarchive.net/car/torquewrench.html

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Thanks for the info. Honestly, I had no idea this topic would cause so much friction. I think the back and forth with Swanny was just two stubborn people with different opinions. He said things that irritated me and I said things that irritated him. I wish it had not happened.
I consider everyone here a friend. I've never had a negative experience at the GSR, until this.
Swanny says he's done with this topic, but if he's reading this I would like to apologize for the bad feelings. I'll send a PM too.

I think my next topic will be something safe, like 'How to eat a pizza'.
I don't think there's any way to get in trouble with that.

[Anonymous]

...I think my next topic will be something safe, like 'How to eat a pizza'.
I don't think there's any way to get in trouble with that.

Don't worry, Keith. we all get a bit "sideways" sometimes. Your points about loosening the bolt/nut first, and also cleaning dirty/corroded threads, are very useful.

Simon Waters

[wrench]

...I think my next topic will be something safe, like 'How to eat a pizza'.
I don't think there's any way to get in trouble with that.

Don't worry, Keith. we all get a bit "sideways" sometimes. Your points about loosening the bolt/nut first, and also cleaning dirty/corroded threads, are very useful.

Simon Waters

I'll second that.. it really helped me, hey thats what the Tech Forums all about
John.

[Anonymous]

Simon Waters wrote:
KEITH KRAUSE wrote:

...I think my next topic will be something safe, like 'How to eat a pizza'.
I don't think there's any way to get in trouble with that.

Don't worry, Keith. we all get a bit "sideways" sometimes. Your points about loosening the bolt/nut first, and also cleaning dirty/corroded threads, are very useful.

Simon Waters

I'll second that.. it really helped me, hey thats what the Tech Forums all about
John.

Make that a third. I'll make this public also as the reply I sent to Keith in the PM you won't get to read.

The short story is that we all learned something here, especially myself. I can be abrasive at times, I know that. I think in my case it comes with age - ever see 'Grumpy Old Men'?

Sorry if I offended you Keith.

I don't hold grudges, and to tell you the truth, saying what I feel may get me into trouble, but it keeps me sane. Everyone stay sane and keep posting.

[Anonymous]

I personally like the old pointer type of torque wrench. It gives you a better idea if the bolt that you are tightening is going to snap or not. The pointer on the torque wrench should continuously move as you are tightening the bolt. If it stops moving and your still turning that usually is a good indication that the bolt that you are tightening is stretching and is about ready to snap. The ones that click don’t let you know until it’s too late.

When they list the torque settings in the shop manuals they usually list a range that is suitable, this indicates to me that it is not so much the foot lbs or foot inches that is important but it’s actually that they be set sufficiently tight, and if there is a number of bolts that need to be torqued to a specific range then what is important that the range be met and that the bolts be torqued down to within a few pounds of each other. I really believe that the old pointer type of torque wrench will do this with great success.

Roman

[Anonymous]

Some good points Roman. Torque is not an exact figure. As I said before, what we really are after is the stretch of the bolt and torgue is just the handiest way to cross-reference to that.

There are some engine builders who actually measure the stretch on specific bolts in a test fixture and then measure the torque required to get that figure. Then during assembly they can get it exactly right. This is a bit much for us, but when you are dealing with a 250k dollar motor, nothing is overlooked.

Remember - stretch is good - too much stretch is bad. How much stretch do you have!

[KEITH KRAUSE]

[quote="Roman"]I personally like the old pointer type of torque wrench. It gives you a better idea if the bolt that you are tightening is going to snap or not. The pointer on the torque wrench should continuously move as you are tightening the bolt. If it stops moving and your still turning that usually is a good indication that the bolt that you are tightening is stretching and is about ready to snap. The ones that click don?t let you know until it?s too late.

Hi Roman.
I don't understand this explanation. Neither torque wrench is going to give you a better idea if you're about to snap a bolt. As you tighten, one points to the desired setting you want, then you stop. As you tighten with the other, it clicks, to let you know you've reached the desired setting, then you stop. In either case, why would you continue to tighten the bolt when you can tell that the setting has been achieved?
On a pointer wrench, the pointer will NEVER stop as long as you are applying more torque. It will not stop moving until you have broken the bolt or you have flexed it to the far side of its scale, if possible. So to say that the pointer can stop moving as you continue to tighten, is impossible.
And with a click type wrench, you say they won't warn you if the bolt is about to break, until it's too late. They do warn you, by clicking. If you continue to tighten the bolt after the click... why?
And since it's been brought up, I think the chance to over torque or break a bolt is greater with the pointer type because you have to rely on eyesight. If you don't have a clear view straight at the pointer, the angle can cause you to over torque as well as under torque the bolt. Working on motorcycles, you usually have a good view, but sometimes the bolts are upside down, such as your oil drain bolt. And on car engines you can have problems seeing the pointer well.

[moto_dan]

I don't know if any of you read the several references I posted in regards to torque wrenches, but it's time for a "I'll never forget story"... Back in 1972-73 I worked as a carpenters helper assisting 2 master carpenters on a commercial building site. Anyway the two older men(about my age now were installing pre-finished paneling in an office and they both used very different techniques for cutting and fitting the paneling. These two craftsman almost came to blows arguing(hammers drawn) about which was the better way... When the job was complete I would have challenged anyone to spot the differences. Moral...proper use of either style TR, (if calibrated) in the hands of the equally skilled will yield acceptable results. Always IMO