1150 3.5" wheel in an 1100 swingarm

[John Kat]

No problemo
For the 2.5" wheel I agree with the width of the outside bearing dimension of 116 mm but I find 49.5 mm vs the 54 measured by Salty
For the 3.5" wheel, I agree with the 111 mm B to B measurement but I find 55.5 mm vs 51.25 measured by Salty.
I suspected that Salty might have inverted his measurements but he stated the contrary.
With this data my offset is 55.5-49.5= 6 mm
Salty's offset is 51.25-54= -3.75mm
That's why we disagree...
I did another quick test this afternoon by measuring the offset between the rim and both sides of the swingarm as shown in the picture below.
On my GS 1000 with the 2.5" rim both sides are at 78 mm ( the wheel is well centered)
On my GS 1000 S with the 3" rim both sides are at 68 mm ( bang in the middle again ) but here the wheel is offset to the left by 4 mm with special spacers....

[posplayr]

No problemo
For the 2.5" wheel I agree with the width of the outside bearing dimension of 116 mm but I find 49.5 mm vs the 54 measured by Salty
For the 3.5" wheel, I agree with the 111 mm B to B measurement but I find 55.5 mm vs 51.25 measured by Salty.
I suspected that Salty might have inverted his measurements but he stated the contrary.
With this data my offset is 55.5-49.5= 6 mm
Salty's offset is 51.25-54= -3.75mm
That's why we disagree...
I did another quick test this afternoon by measuring the offset between the rim and both sides of the swingarm as shown in the picture below.
On my GS 1000 with the 2.5" rim both sides are at 78 mm ( the wheel is well centered)
On my GS 1000 S with the 3" rim both sides are at 68 mm ( bang in the middle again ) but here the wheel is offset to the left by 4 mm with special spacers....

Those matching dimensions are very comforting, the exact dimensions for spacers should probably be done by calculation but the wheel measurements make sure that nothing was "inverted" in the process.

You guys are still off by 10mm (that is alot which is why I recommended the wheel measurement)?

A single drawing with known measurements should put it to bed. I dont have a cad model but Powerpoint will allow you to size dimensions pretty accurately as well.

[posplayr]

Wheel alighnment using the sting method. I had a thin 600 lbs test kite line so it worked well.




I used this setup to keep the lines tight, the 30 lbs black box was propped up on a wooden block to keep the lines tight .




Quick check on chain alignment. Put 6 ft level against the tire and measured how much lateral offset there was the length of the chain. Looks like less than a link plate width. By measuring left and right forward and backward (4 equal measurements on the disks) confirms the wheels are aligned. Set the rear chain tension, then adjust the right hand side to make all 4 equal.




One last simple thing is to check the chain alignment with the wheel. I used a level below the chain and checked the alignment over the length of the chain. The level rests on the tire but for a chain it is close enough.

[John Kat]

I did the wheel alignment test using the string method not only to check that the wheels were aligned but also to check that there were both vertical as I was suspecting some frame damage.
Everything was OK!
I also checked the chain alignment with this handy laser tool that I highly recommend.
Here I'm measuring my 1100 Kat with GSXR 2nd gen wheels and an 1135 engine.


To come back to the point, I wish someone would measure one of the wheels in question to determine who is right or wrong?

[posplayr]

To come back to the point, I wish someone would measure one of the wheels in question to determine who is right or wrong?

Since your wheel is measuring "centered" I think you are probably correct. According to your measurements he is off 10mm or 0.4"; that should be pretty noticeable measuring the rim off the fork. Maybe there is another variation? Are you both using 1100 sprocket carriers or 1150 sprocket carriers?

Sorry I only have a bunch of 17 and 18" GSXR wheels

[salty_monk]

I will be using the stock GS1000 Sprocket carrier & spacer set but as I noted earlier this works perfectly with the 2.5" GS1100 wheel & GS1100 swingarm.

I believe John & I compared spacer sets (or at least sprocket drive spacers) & they measured up the same.

Until I mount my wheels I cannot say for sure that I am correct.

What I can say is that my measured differences in the 2.5" wheel as compared to the 3.5" wheel are correct (and seeing that everything else is equal because I am using the same sprocket drive & spacer set) then I have a high level of confidence that adding spacers as described will work for me...

I suspect Grand Rouge's pencil mark is 2mm off above..

[John Kat]

Good news!
I believe I can confirm my value for the offset of the GS 1000/1100 wheel.
The individual spacers on the GS 1000 going from left ( chain side) to right measure : 28,2/47/116/23/23.6/11.6 for a total stacked height of 249.4 mm
This gives us the wheel center at 249.4/2=124.7mm.
The offset is computed by taking the value of the center minus the two spacers that are left to the left wheel bearing.
This gives 124.7-28.2-47=49.5mm
It's getting late so please check my findings...
For the 1150 wheel, I got the following measurements so far:
13.4/XX/111/23.4/24.3
I'm missing the sprocket carrier spacer dimension to conclude.
Soon the mystery of the GS 1150 wheel offset will be solved

[John Kat]

I got the measurements of the different spacers used on the GS 1150 a few minutes ago....
Here we go: 13.4/42.5/111/23.4/24.3 or a total stacked lenght of 214.6 mm.
The wheel center is thus at 214.6/2= 107.3 mm
The offset is then 107.3-13.4-42.5=51.4 mm.
The GS 1150 rear wheel is thus offset by 51.4-49.5=1.9 mm further to the right compared to the GS 1000 wheel.
Given that all spacers have been measured individually by 2 different persons, it's quite possible that there is a cumulative error of +/-1mm.
My mounted wheels have been offset by 3 mm to the left to get them centered which I believe is the correct value.
I believe we are at the end of the saga on the 1150 wheel offset.
Maybe it's time for me to add a signature?
What about: I like to be challenged but I like even more to win

[salty_monk]

John,

I don't have time to really study this again today but I believe you can clearly see in my pictures & CAD above that the 1150 wheel rim is clearly offset to the left of it's hub in comparison to the 2.5" wheel.

Look at the side profile shots. With the hub resting on the ground. (This won't be perfect because it is resting on the casting not the bearing face but the depth of the casting face to bearing face is similar for each wheel so it illustrates the point).

Your measurements are correct but you are calculating to the centre of the HUB not to the centre of the RIM...

I believe the RIM is offset from the HUB.

Dan

[John Kat]

Dan,
I believe, I know why our measurements don't agree
For the 1150 wheel you measured an offset of 51.25 mm, my latest measurement is 51.4 mm, so here we do agree.
For the 1000/1100 wheel you measured 54 mm while I have 49.5 mm...
The simple explanation is that you are not measuring an original GS 1000 EC wheel.
That same wheel was used up to and including the KATANA 1100 SZ.
Are you sure of the origin of the wheel?
With respect to your comment about measuring to the center of the hub versus the center of the rim, I would say that the two are the same PROVIDED the swingarm is symetrical.
I know the GS 1000 is as I checked, for the GS 1150 I don't know, but as my measurements concur with my previous findings and your own measurements, I have very little doubt.
Thanks for putting up with me!

[posplayr]

There are so many variables and people seldom have the exact same configuration that it is best to recommend doing a final check of measurements regardless of how you do the spacers.

1.) Center the wheel in the frame
2.) Alighn the rear wheel with the front wheel (e.g. string method)
3.) Check the chain alignment

This is the link to step one.

I thought about the measurements and suddenly realized there is a pretty easy way to measure the spacer offsets with the wheel and swingarm off the bike. See link.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=197262

[posplayr]

I got the measurements of the different spacers used on the GS 1150 a few minutes ago....
Here we go: 13.4/42.5/111/23.4/24.3 or a total stacked lenght of 214.6 mm.
The wheel center is thus at 214.6/2= 107.3 mm

I believe your measurements that the wheel is centered, I just don't understand the statement above.

The center of the stack height (214.6/2=107.3mm) is the center of the forks,

If the fork center and wheel center are the same then the swing arm must symmetrical then that is also the center of the bike/frame and there is no wheel offset.

[salty_monk]

John - no question of "putting up with"... One day we'll find an answer we're both happy with.

It would help if I could get some time to fit mine in the bike! Sorry about that!

In answer to your question about I have 2 x 2.5" wheels.

One is an original 78GS1000E wheel.

One is a 1983750ES RIM that I retrofitted with the bearing and spacer kit from a GS1100 (cross matched it, the spacer & bearings are identical on these wheels).

I interchange both wheels no problem. The wheel in the pics above is the 83750ES Rim.

I still don't believe the RIM centre & the HUB centre are the same thing. You are calculating HUB Centre whilst my CAD calculates RIM Centre relative to HUB centre.

Hard to explain without you sitting next to me looking at the monitor perhaps.

[John Kat]

I believe your measurements that the wheel is centered, I just don't understand the statement above.

The center of the stack height (214.6/2=107.3mm) is the center of the forks,

If the fork center and wheel center are the same then the swing arm must symmetrical then that is also the center of the bike/frame and there is no wheel offset.

What we are trying to achieve is to understand what is the offset between the wheel center and the left bearing edge.
If we replace a given wheel with a wheel with another offset that wheel will no longer be centered unless you use other spacers.
That's why Salty and myself are discussing offset differences between different wheels.
I don't know if I'm answering your question?
So the idea is that if the original wheel runs in a symetric fork, the center of the wheel will be located at 50% of the stacked value of all the spacers.
The wheel offset ( to the edge of the left bearing) will then simply be the 50% stacked value minus the spacers that are left of the left bearing.
I believe that most double shock absorber forks ought to be symetrical.
The chances for the single shockers to be symetrical are surely much lower...
Not easy to explain in words...
I will look into the process you explained in the next post tomorrow!

[posplayr]

What we are trying to achieve is to understand what is the offset between the wheel center and the left bearing edge.
If we replace a given wheel with a wheel with another offset that wheel will no longer be centered unless you use other spacers.
That's why Salty and myself are discussing offset differences between different wheels.
I don't know if I'm answering your question?
So the idea is that if the original wheel runs in a symetric fork, the center of the wheel will be located at 50% of the stacked value of all the spacers.
The wheel offset ( to the edge of the left bearing) will then simply be the 50% stacked value minus the spacers that are left of the left bearing.
I believe that most double shock absorber forks ought to be symetrical.
The chances for the single shockers to be symetrical are surely much lower...
Not easy to explain in words...
I will look into the process you explained in the next post tomorrow!

I think the answer to my question is that:

• because you are assuming the 1000 wheel is centered and
• the 1000 forks are centered

therefore you conclude:

the center of the 1000 stack is the center of the 1000 wheel.


When you use the term "offset", I had assumed something else (like how far the hub center is offset from the rim center). But from your calculation I see you mean the distance from sprocket side outside bearing face to wheel center.


It was nice for Dan to draw the two configurations, the problem is that they are unlabeled or the dimensions are illegible