1150 3.5" wheel in an 1100 swingarm

[salty_monk]

Dan, most of your calculation seem to be about centering the wheel. What counter sprocket offset did you require and how did you achieve it?

I think that is what Joe Nardy was bringing back up which is a 3.5" wheel needing a 4mm offset at the counter sprocket.

.

You guys are still not getting it... This recipe also centres the sprocket as far as I am concerned.

Let me explain it this way, the bearing face on the sprocket side is connected to the sprocket drive spacer directly. The drive spacer governs where the sprocket sits relative to the bearing face by its length.

Think about this carefully as it's very important.

IF you use the original chain side spacer pack on the outside & the original sprocket hub then the CHAIN LINE MUST BE CORRECT. No offset anything needed!

Now from that point we worry about the rim being central. In my CAD I show that the bearing face is 2.75 too far LEFT (from back) without a spacer which also offsets the Rim by the same amount (with no spacer RIM is offset 2.75mm left viewed from back).
Put that 2.75mm spacer between the bearing face & the rotor spacer to centralise everything.

John - sorry house move has slowed everything down although wheels are coated & just waiting final clearcoat & tyre fitment & then you'll have your pics.... At which point I'll be saying "ner ner" or eating a lot of humble pie! One or the other

[posplayr]

You guys are still not getting it... This recipe also centres the sprocket as far as I am concerned.

Let me explain it this way, the bearing face on the sprocket side is connected to the sprocket drive spacer directly. The drive spacer governs where the sprocket sits relative to the bearing face by its length.

Think about this carefully as it's very important.

IF you use the original chain side spacer pack on the outside & the original sprocket hub then the CHAIN LINE MUST BE CORRECT. No offset anything needed!

Now from that point we worry about the rim being central. In my CAD I show that the bearing face is 2.75 too far LEFT (from back) without a spacer which also offsets the Rim by the same amount (with no spacer RIM is offset 2.75mm left viewed from back).
Put that 2.75mm spacer between the bearing face & the rotor spacer to centralise everything.

Dan,
I know you have a pretty thick Brit accent, but I think you just said
"zero counter sprocket offset for a 3.5" wheel"?.
Jim

[blowerbike]

oh gawd i can't believe i'm here again...
if you don't change the chain side then the drive line stays the same.
the added spacer(s) goes on the rotor side.
i have done dozen or more of these and have had no odd handling or sprocket wear.
street and strip.
daily riders.
the 1150 3.5" rim is narrower in the hub area than an 1100 rim.
**insert beating a dead horse here**

[salty_monk]

Agreed with Blower above however to centre the RIM 2-3mm of the 5mm required needs to go on the left side of the hub (on the left bearing face), the rest on the right.

In practice would a rim offset by 2-3mm to the left make much difference - probably not at our riding level on the street and I doubt it is even very noticeable in practice.

Jim - CORRECT. NO OFFSET ANYTHING REQUIRED TO KEEP THE CHAIN LINE AS SUZUKI INTENDED!

If converting to 530 you will need the standard spacer Z1 supply to go on the OUTSIDE of the countershaft sprocket but that has NOTHING to do with the wheel swap.

Dan

[posplayr]

Agreed with Blower above however to centre the RIM 2-3mm of the 5mm required needs to go on the left side of the hub (on the left bearing face), the rest on the right.

In practice would a rim offset by 2-3mm to the left make much difference - probably not at our riding level on the street and I doubt it is even very noticeable in practice.

Jim - CORRECT. NO OFFSET ANYTHING REQUIRED TO KEEP THE CHAIN LINE AS SUZUKI INTENDED!

If converting to 530 you will need the standard spacer Z1 supply to go on the OUTSIDE of the countershaft sprocket but that has NOTHING to do with the wheel swap.

Dan

I attached a plot of the data so far. For the wheels 4" and wider the linear model works pretty well. At 3.5" it appears it could be almost anything depending as there are really no chain clearance issues.


Given the varied results in projecting 3.5" wheels I would guess that you just need to center the rear wheel (Johns magic wheel excepted) and then measure how far your chain is off. You will likely be very pleased to find that the chain alignment is satisfactory as well. Any offsets are probably going to be within a +/- 3mm error bound.



EDIT: Looking at the subsequent posts, the 2-3mm offset required to center the wheel will produce a 2-3 offset requirement on the counter sprocket. The ideal model says you would need 0.125" which is just over 3 mm so very close based on observations.

I also changed the figure as the model looks to work very well. (except for Johns wheel)

[Guest]

i respectfully disagree with blower, and with salty monk on the adding spacers to the left side, at least on my es and with my 1150 3.5 wheel. i found i had to shift the 3.5 to the LEFT by a couple (3? 4? I don't remember)mms., shaving the left spacer and adding to the right, but no amount of photographic evidence seems to persuade. neither chain alignment nor caliper/rotor alignment were an issue for ME, ONCE i got the rim centered in the swingarm. I have no idea if the caliper/caliper hanger/spacer is the original from the es or from the 1150, as i inherited this (incorrectly installed, at least from the perspective of having the rim centered in the swingarm) mod. this is a(n?) hilariously long thread for what seems like should be an easy mod! carry on.

greg

[blowerbike]

i respectfully disagree with blower, and with salty monk on the adding spacers to the left side, at least on my es and with my 1150 3.5 wheel. i found i had to shift the 3.5 to the LEFT by a couple (3? 4? I don't remember)mms., shaving the left spacer and adding to the right, but no amount of photographic evidence seems to persuade. neither chain alignment nor caliper/rotor alignment were an issue for ME, ONCE i got the rim centered in the swingarm. I have no idea if the caliper/caliper hanger/spacer is the original from the es or from the 1150, as i inherited this (incorrectly installed, at least from the perspective of having the rim centered in the swingarm) mod. this is a(n?) hilariously long thread for what seems like should be an easy mod! carry on.

greg

if you use factory drive line parts then the drive line does not/CAN NOT change.
plus i add nothing to the left side...only to the right side to center the rotor in the caliper.

[John Kat]

i respectfully disagree with blower, and with salty monk on the adding spacers to the left side, at least on my es and with my 1150 3.5 wheel. i found i had to shift the 3.5 to the LEFT by a couple (3? 4? I don't remember)mms., shaving the left spacer and adding to the right, but no amount of photographic evidence seems to persuade. neither chain alignment nor caliper/rotor alignment were an issue for ME, ONCE i got the rim centered in the swingarm. I have no idea if the caliper/caliper hanger/spacer is the original from the es or from the 1150, as i inherited this (incorrectly installed, at least from the perspective of having the rim centered in the swingarm) mod. this is a(n?) hilariously long thread for what seems like should be an easy mod! carry on.

greg

Greg, that's EXACTLY what I had to do to get my 1150 wheel centered in my GS 1000/1100 swingarm.
The 1150 wheel was originally so badly offset to the right with the GS 1100 Kat spacers that the tire would hit the mudgard when going over bumps.
I still fail to understand why S.M.'s wheel is different?

[blowerbike]

this is because people are trying to center a wheel in a bike that never had the wheel centered to start with....
suzuki did this....all i have done was installed a wider wheel by using the same cush and spacers which KEEP THE DRIVE LINE STRAIGHT.
i wasn't trying to reinvented the "wheel"...
just giving people a wider tire option.
no chain/sprocket wear...no ill handling ect......
and yes a 150/70/17 is the perfect sized tire for this wheel.
ugh................................

[posplayr]

i respectfully disagree with blower, and with salty monk on the adding spacers to the left side, at least on my es and with my 1150 3.5 wheel. i found i had to shift the 3.5 to the LEFT by a couple (3? 4? I don't remember)mms., shaving the left spacer and adding to the right, but no amount of photographic evidence seems to persuade. neither chain alignment nor caliper/rotor alignment were an issue for ME, ONCE i got the rim centered in the swingarm. I have no idea if the caliper/caliper hanger/spacer is the original from the es or from the 1150, as i inherited this (incorrectly installed, at least from the perspective of having the rim centered in the swingarm) mod. this is a(n?) hilariously long thread for what seems like should be an easy mod! carry on.

greg

You might be disagreeing but your ARE still in agreement that centering the rear wheel centers the chain and zero counter sprocket offset is required.

[posplayr]

Greg, that's EXACTLY what I had to do to get my 1150 wheel centered in my GS 1000/1100 swingarm.
The 1150 wheel was originally so badly offset to the right with the GS 1100 Kat spacers that the tire would hit the mudgard when going over bumps.
I still fail to understand why S.M.'s wheel is different?

Now I'm confused as Greg, said when he centered the wheel he centered the chain meaning no countershaft offset while you have claimed you needed a 13mm countershaft offset presumably with a centered wheel?

[posplayr]

this is because people are trying to center a wheel in a bike that never had the wheel centered to start with....
suzuki did this....all i have done was installed a wider wheel by using the same cush and spacers which KEEP THE DRIVE LINE STRAIGHT.
i wasn't trying to reinvented the "wheel"...
just giving people a wider tire option.
no chain/sprocket wear...no ill handling ect......
and yes a 150/70/17 is the perfect sized tire for this wheel.
ugh................................

Sounds like you are content to have the wheel be 2-3mm out in order to not modify the chain line. And I agree that it is probably not noticeable unless you make an attempt to measure it, but normal riding you would never know.

Dan is saying the wheel needs to go right by about 2-3 mm but then the chain would be out by that amount.

[blowerbike]

630 chain has room with this conversion.
suzuki used 150/70/17's on 750 katana's...yes they had 3.5x17 rim...it is the perfect size tire for the 3.5 conversion.
i understand salty's point on this..you add a spacer/shim between the cush spacer and bearing to push the wheel to the right...this WILL NOT affect the drive line and you have more than enough engagement left on the rubbers.
did i mention that the 1150 wheel though wider has a narrower hub than the 1100 rim.
if there was ever a waste of band width...i think we have found the source.

[posplayr]

630 chain has room with this conversion.
suzuki used 150/70/17's on 750 katana's...yes they had 3.5x17 rim...it is the perfect size tire for the 3.5 conversion.
i understand salty's point on this..you add a spacer/shim between the cush spacer and bearing to push the wheel to the right...this WILL NOT affect the drive line and you have more than enough engagement left on the rubbers.
did i mention that the 1150 wheel though wider has a narrower hub than the 1100 rim.
if there was ever a waste of band width...i think we have found the source.

Had not caught that from reading his posts. It probably still counts as offset although it is a relatively easy way of obtaining it.

[jwhelan65]

630 chain has room with this conversion.
suzuki used 150/70/17's on 750 katana's...yes they had 3.5x17 rim...it is the perfect size tire for the 3.5 conversion.
i understand salty's point on this..you add a spacer/shim between the cush spacer and bearing to push the wheel to the right...this WILL NOT affect the drive line and you have more than enough engagement left on the rubbers.
did i mention that the 1150 wheel though wider has a narrower hub than the 1100 rim.
if there was ever a waste of band width...i think we have found the source.

Terry you are correct on the hub, the 1150 measures the same as the 700. This made my conversion a breeze after mounting the stock 700 rotors to the 1150 wheels..