CDI or signal generator?

[snowbeard]

so I just got some spark back on my 850L, nad I think I have narrowed it down to the signal generator, but I could be wrong...

here's how I "know". I pulled the connection for the signal generator into the CDI and grounded one of the terminals at a time with the key on. one side caused one coil to fire, but the other side didn't make the other coil fire. (plugs one and two out and grounded on the engine)

so I goosed the motor with the starter, what I think was one rev, or one bump. this didn't make it fire the other one, so I tried again. after a few of these bumps, both coils started to fire from grounding the same terminal, while grounding the second terminal did nothing. I assumed the signal generator was grounded and flipped between coils, grounding one then the other, but it doesn't seem to work that way.

SO... once it was firing both sides, I got it to turn over with ether, then with just gas and choke. each time, it didn't want to start until I let off the starter button. even just a bump and letting go of the starter would get it to fire up a couple times.

the reason I suspect the generator or the CDI is that once it got started, it would be going along pretty smoothly, then just stop. maybe after five seconds, maybe after thirty. it seemed electrical because it didnt' just sputter out, it acted killed. also, if it had died off, the next start might not take for a few bumps, then it would kick over and backfire, leading me to believe I had lost spark for whatever reason.

so which would strike you as the culpit? the $10 on eBay generator, or the $400 CDI ;-)

for those of you unfamiliar with my plight, here are some pleas for help in order of general relevance...
http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=84744
http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=83867
http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=83791
http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=84017
http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=84048

 

[earlfor]

It sounds like a classic case of ignitor box failure. I have been through the same problem. Mine started faulting out one evening on a ride 80 miles in the middle of nowhere. LOL Your best bet (cheapest way out) is to replace the ignition system with a Dyna S. You could get a used ignitor box off ebay, but the problem there is it likely wont be in any better working condition than the one you have that isnt working. Few if any ebay sellers are knowledgable about the condition of electrical parts they sell. For electrical, ebay is a crap game.

You have a "on its way out" ignitor box.

BTW, not to be picky, but no GS models used CDI ignitions. They are all electronic or points.

Earl

so which would strike you as the culpit? the $10 on eBay generator, or the $400 CDI ;-)

 

[snowbeard]

ach, that's not what I had hoped, but electronics go much sooner than simple things like magnets, eh?

anyone want to cheer me up?? ;-)

 

[earlfor]

Well, the "cheer up" news is that once you change to a Dyna S ignition, You will have no more ignition problems. Anything can always happen, but I have never had a Dyna S ignition go bad, and I have converted a LOT of bikes to them.

Earl

ach, that's not what I had hoped, but electronics go much sooner than simple things like magnets, eh?

anyone want to cheer me up?? ;-)

 

[snowbeard]

so our bikes are electronic, what is it that's actually happening in the circuit board?
is there any way to bypass that and run something more simple? something I could jerry-rig perhaps to circumvent the ECU? would I be able to convert to points? (obviously there's a reason not to, but if it would be cheaper and might work, I have more tinkering talent than money for the project)

it looks like the dyna just has the pickup? does it actually do anything besides just interupt the orange/white wire to the coils??


this bike is pretty hard ridden, has many issues, and I don't think it's worth the price I paid for the bike to buy a Dyna S, I paid less. :-(

I will also try recleaning all the wires and connections associated with the ECU, as I know they are all in poor shape. Maybe I'll get super lucky and that's all it really was... ';-)

 

[mark]

this bike is pretty hard ridden, has many issues, and I don't think it's worth the price I paid for the bike to buy a Dyna S, I paid less. :-(

Welcome to the club :-D. Most everything I have on my bike is worth more than I paid for the thing. Its the brotherhood, man!

 

[earlfor]

The Dyna performs the same functions as the original ignitor box. With 20 years of advances in technology, that 12 cubic inch ignitor box now occupies about 1/4 cubic inch within the crank sensor casting.

Its very easy to retrofit a points ignition system. All you will need is the backing plate, points cam, cam cap washer, right and left pointsets and two condensors. I have done it on a few bikes while waiting to get the green for a Dyna system. Points and condensors are in stock items at cyclerecycle.

Earl

it looks like the dyna just has the pickup? does it actually do anything besides just interupt the orange/white wire to the coils??


this bike is pretty hard ridden, has many issues, and I don't think it's worth the price I paid for the bike to buy a Dyna S, I paid less. :-(

I will also try recleaning all the wires and connections associated with the ECU, as I know they are all in poor shape. Maybe I'll get super lucky and that's all it really was... ';-)

 

[SqDancerLynn1]

Depending on your igniter You can check & see if you can take it apart? If so try resoldering the circuit board

 

[snowbeard]

here's a pic of my ignitor, it's been clearcoated after they produced it, but it could be possible that I could resolder it... if I knew more, I could test all the capacitors and resistors, but my bet would be it's the chip(s) in teh little black boxes that has/have given up the ghost...

any thoughts on identifying the culprit? I can look for scorched, but I don't know the color codes to know the resistance to expect, etc...

 

[earlfor]

If my memory is correct, Duanage was experimenting with rebuilding ignitor boxes. I think he would be the most likely person with experience that may be helpful to you in finding out and repairing what is wrong. Give'em a PM, cant hurt to ask.

Eark

here's a pic of my ignitor,

 

[Billy Ricks]

Here's a website with the values for each band on the resistors, http://www.csgnetwork.com/resistcolcalc.html . There are two 450 ohm caps and one 150. This site may help you id your diodes, http://www.tpub.com/neets/book7/24k.htm . Someone else will have to help with the voltage regulators.

 

[duaneage]

If my memory is correct, Duanage was experimenting with rebuilding ignitor boxes. I think he would be the most likely person with experience that may be helpful to you in finding out and repairing what is wrong. Give'em a PM, cant hurt to ask.

Eark

here's a pic of my ignitor,

I fixed on once with transistors from radio shack for Isaac but I think his coils took it out again. I also have a spare electronic igniton box ( I actually have two) that I'll part with for 25.00 + shipping. Your coils might be bad or shorting out and that will kill anything, even a dyna.

I have a couple of sets of stock coils too....

 

[duaneage]

Here's a website with the values for each band on the resistors, http://www.csgnetwork.com/resistcolcalc.html . There are two 450 ohm caps and one 150. This site may help you id your diodes, http://www.tpub.com/neets/book7/24k.htm . Someone else will have to help with the voltage regulators.

The transistors I used were TIP122, they had high enough specs. Replacing them requires skill in working on electronics, they can be damaged easily if not done right. Not a job for a BFH or large cresent wrenches.

 

[duaneage]

here's a pic of my ignitor, it's been clearcoated after they produced it, but it could be possible that I could resolder it... if I knew more, I could test all the capacitors and resistors, but my bet would be it's the chip(s) in teh little black boxes that has/have given up the ghost...

any thoughts on identifying the culprit? I can look for scorched, but I don't know the color codes to know the resistance to expect, etc...

You can test the ignitor.

Use a AA battery. Connect the + terminal of the batter to the green wire and the - terminal to the black ground. When you touch the + terminal to the green the coil should spark. This was taken from the manual.

The transistors are those black chips. They are 2SD977 darlington Pair power transistors. They actually switch the coils on and off just like a set of points do. They do get warm ( after all they are channeling 30 watts a piece) so it is normal for them to be warm, but not too hot. There is a mica insulator underneath the transistor that insulates it from the metal Do not loose that or monkey with it as it allows the chip to cool. If you remove the chip you must recoat the mica with special compound to cool the chip.

Soldering on diodes, transistors and capacitors is risky business. you must be careful not to over heat the part. I use a temperature controlled iron with heat dissapating tools to prevent damage.

Basically the ignitor is a high speed frequency compensated switch with highslew rates and low ringing, technically speaking.

I hope nobodies head exploded on that one.

 

[earlfor]

Awww its ok, we know you only said that because it sounds good.

Earl ehehehe

Basically the ignitor is a high speed frequency compensated switch with highslew rates and low ringing, technically speaking.

I hope nobodies head exploded on that one.

 

[snowbeard]

wow, not quite exploded but thanks! ;-)

so I actually have a "new" box on the way for $15 all told on ebay, I figure for that it's worth it just for diagnostics sake...

but what worries me is the part about the coils... if they test out with the right resistances on both primary and secondary, is there more that I need to test to avoid shorting? should that cover me? or can they just short intermitently?

I appreciate the part about testing the box too! I will try that if I get time before the new one shows up!

 

[duaneage]

Check out the wires going to the coils. They pass hot things and sharp things. A nicked wire will take out the ignitor quick. Replace the 20 year old terminals on the coil with new ones. Don't be tempted to solder them on, just get new terminals and a good crimper and make sure they are tight.

The coils are grounded through the mounting screws. Make sure they are clean and the mounting screws are tight. Ungrounded coils can cause problems not only with running but wreak havic on the ignitor box.

And last make sure the ignitor box is grounded both through the wire and the case. Grounds are more important than supply for electronics since all circuits need a reference and ground is it.

 

[snowbeard]

Well it was the ECU, my little black box came from ebay and I finally hooked it up last night, she started right up and seems to run well! didn't have time to fully warm it up and test it out, but so far so good!!

Here's another vote for Earl for GS God!!! :-D

 

[snowbeard]

woo hoo!!!

woo hoo!!!

so after all that I let the dang thing sit for nearly a year!!! I did steal all the jets out for my 650 pipe change, and that at least drained the bowls, but it was already gumming up.

it never ran quite right anyway, so this last weekend I just sat down and did a halfass job on the carb cleaning. I didn't pull them fully apart and soak them, but I cleaned all the feeder tubes and jets, pulled the springs on top of the needle sliders, and the sliders themselves. checked all the diaphrams, checked the bowls and tubes in there, and put it all back together. didn't have time to do anything else, so I just left it.

picked up a battery and got it all charged without blowing myself up, and the float bowl stopper bolt that was missing during the week, and put that last piece that I found on the towel I was working on after I had already jimmied the carbs back into the boots... tried it yesterday and as soon as fuel started to fill the outer bowls, the linkagE started to spew. had to take the last carb off again and remove the last carb. MANY THANKS TO ROBERT BARR I had the orings to replace these onhand!!

got it all together and some shocks on and rode it around the neighborhood this evening!!!! ran like a champ, even idled for me!! there are some clutch plates that I think stick, as trying to take off under heavy accel gives a little surge of extra power sometimes. boy this thing's strong!! i feel like I've said that before. \\/

but it ran!!! now it's worth the time and effort to really work on cleaning up!!

one thing I did to help keep the petcock clear was add a piece of the rubber tubing about an inch long from another gas line inside where the filter would have been (long gone). the tank's been kreamed, but it was all varnish that melted out with the addition of new gas.

I'll get it together and post some pics sometime soon!! this one is pretty crappy, but the best I got this evening.

Shot at 2007-07-11