Opinions on starter problem on 1983 GR650

[Guest]

I'm looking for a collective opinion on a starter problem I have with a "new to me" 1983 GR650. I think I know the problem but here's the facts so far:

Solenoid just gives a click each time I hit the start button.

Battery is good and charged to 13.1.

When I check the voltage at the post on the solenoid that the battery goes to, it equals the battery at 13.1.

Checked the voltage on solenoid post that goes from solenoid to the starter and when I hit the start button, it shows 12.6, a little lower than 13.1.

Took off the cover to the starter and checked for anything "peculiar" there and it all looks right, like nothings been bothered with.

I then checked the voltage on the end of the wire that attaches to the starter from the solenoid and when I hit the start button, it matches the 12.6 voltage on that post.

I then tried directly attaching the power wire from the starter to the battery and got NOTHING! No sound what so ever.

I think the starter is shot, needs to be pulled and see if it can be rebuilt. Something I haven't done yet but now's as good a time as any to learn.

What does everyone else think? Let me know and I hope I layed it out clear for everybody. Thanks

[Guest]

Right

I think you've got it figured out just right. There's nothing wrong with the solenoid or the wiring. Your brushes are probably shot or it might only be a really dirty armature. You'll probably see the problem as soon as you get it taken apart.

[Guest]

Thanks rockford...that's what I was thinking but wanted other opinions.

So, Hawaii...the wife and I spent a week in Maui last year and absolutely loved it!! I envy you...we're trying to save up so we can go again.

Thanks for the help.

[Guest]

You bet

You're welcome! Starter problems are common and usually easily remedied. Glad you enjoyed Maui. I've been over there about a dozen times but not for several years. Living in Hawaii is nice but much different than visiting. Leaving "the rock" from time to time is essential and I travel to the mainland fairly often.

[Normk]

Don't recall whether have repaired a GS starter, could someone post a link to disassembled photos? Have repaired a huge number of starters over the decades (likely 100's isn't an exageration) & agree with Rockford's assessment.

One additional thought/suggestion: many of these small Japanese starters use an "O" shaped disk as the brush holder plate. The steel brush holder usually has two brush holders (some have four = two pairs), one of which is insolated from the brush holder plate while the other holder is corrected directly to the plate.

The insolated brush is connected to the "end" of the field pole windings while the other brush (the ground brush) is connected (also by its pig tail wire) to the brush holder plate. Using the conventional current desciption, current flow from the battery is as follows during starting: battery + to battery + cable to starter relay + connector, through starter relay contacts, to starter relay battery-side connector, to starter cable, to starter insolated connection & into starter, to field pole windings (note some are series while others are series-parallel), through field windings, to insolated brush, from brush to commutator, through commutator into armature windings to opposite commutator bar, through bar to ground brush, ground brush pig tail wire to steel brush holder plate, to starter frame and to ground by way of the engine case, engine case to battery ground cable and basc to battery negative to complete the circuit.

It does sound as though you have an open circuit in the starter.

The brush holder plate is clamped between the starter's steel field housing and the aluminum brush end cover. Since the brush holder plate is also cadmium plated there are many metals present in the junction. As we all know, dissimilar metals + electric current + moisture/corrosives = massive corrosion.

Typically, the connections between the brush holder and the end cap, field housing are a problem in poor starter performance so this area is always worthy of scrutiny when servicing one of these starters. I usually make a small steel "L" bracket which is bolted to the field housing and to the brush holder plate. I use star washers to assist in connection.

Others who do these starters professionally will make a ground wire with two "eye" connectors which is connected to brush holder and field housing. Same result, depends on which method one finds easier to accomplish. Either will have one using "technical language" while making the first one or two modifications but goes better after that.

This connection issue is usually only poor enough to cause high starter draw and poor starter performance, sometimes causing a no-start but can't recall one causing a complete open circuit as your seems to experience.

Rockford's suggestion that you will likely see the cause when the starter is opened shares my view but you will want to take care to inspect all possible problem areas carefully during disassembly. You may have a brush which is stuck in the holder so that its spring cannot keep it in contact with the commutator; a brush lead (pig tail) which is disconnected; the field winding joint broken loose from the head of the connector bolt which passes through the starter field housing to connect to the starter cable; an open (broken wire) in field winding or commutator; a broken/burned commutator bar; etc.

A fairly common problem is for someone to rotate the field connector bolt while connecting/disconnecting/tightening the starter cable nut. When the connector bolt is rotated, it stresses the joint connecting the bolt's head with the field windings and not much rotation is required to break the connection.

Take care when cleaning the parts as one can choose a chemical which will dissolve the lacquer insulating the field or armature windings = bad news. It will be best to simply dry brush, gently, the parts to remove dust and to wipe away oil/grease residue. Note the brush length as the brushes need to be long enough so that they bear against the commutator with good pressure. Check the brush springs and that the brushes are free to slide in the brush holders. It is amazing how often a brush will simply stick in place and open circuit a two brush starter.

What else comes to mind off hand.....when cleaning the commutator bars (the copper contact bars which connect the armature windings to the brushes), first inspect the bars carefully. If any bars are loose the armature is junk as it is not practical to have the commutator professionally replaced due to cost. If any bars are burned black, it is a sign that they have been making poor contact, if the leading edge of any bars are burned, it is likely that the preceding bar's circuit is open.

Use flint paper or 400 grit sandpaper wrapped around the commutator to clean the surface. Clamp the paper by wrapping one's index finger and thumb then rotate the paper/armature to clean the surface. Try to avoid axial sanding as it is best to have any scratches in a circumferential manner as these will cause less wear to the brushes while burnishing.

Do not use emery paper as the particles are like to embed into the copper and cut away the brushes.

The problem here is an open circuit so will dispense with attempting to describe how to identify shorts or grounds to armature or fields. You can check the field windings to ensure that there is a compete circuit between each end however this is difficult to differentiate of there is an open in only one field.

[Guest]

Normk...wow! Quite the reply and I thank you for that.

Although I have never taken out and rebuilt/repaired a starter, I feel a challenge coming on. And I like a good challenge.

I have been reading up on how to clean and rebuild a starter and most of what you have said, I understand. It's basically a word or two that I'm not familiar with but once i get this thing opened up, I'm sure I'll be able to see where I need to go.

Thanks again and I'll let you know what I find out.

[bwringer]

Once you have the starter out, Stocker's Starters is a great source for the parts:

http://stockers.com

Suzuki tended to play mix-n-match with parts, so it's best to have the starter open and in front of you so you can look at the brush plate pics and make sure you get the right stuff.

[Normk]

Forgot to mention: one common problem is misalignment of the starter end frames with the field housing during reassembly. It can be quite "interesting" to get one of these small motors realigned because only a small amount of corrosion or a burr has a very significant effect. Take special care to clean and inspect the fit of the two end frames to the housing. Pay close attention to how they fit together before trying the assembly with armature.

It can be quite helpful to assemble and leave the through bolts quite loose, rotate the armature and progressively snug the bolts while checking for binding of the armature. A considered tap with a soft hammer can make all the difference in aligning. Many starters are assembled so as to bind badly creating problems.

Taking some close-up digital photos at each step can be very helpful when memory fails.

Check also the fit of the bushings Some starters have two while others use three, making alignment even more critical.

Please post some photos as you progress as others will likely find the information to be helpful in preparing for such work.

At least you shouldn't have to worry about swapping the field housing for a starter having reverse rotation but that's another story.

[Guest]

bwringer...I had come across Stockers from earlier posts and will probably use their products for the rebuild.

Normk...thanks again for all the help. I had thought about taking pics as I went along and will probably do so...and the game begins!