Proper way to re-torque a bolt.

[Anonymous]

[quote="KEITH KRAUSE"]

I personally like the old pointer type of torque wrench. It gives you a better idea if the bolt that you are tightening is going to snap or not. The pointer on the torque wrench should continuously move as you are tightening the bolt. If it stops moving and your still turning that usually is a good indication that the bolt that you are tightening is stretching and is about ready to snap. The ones that click don’t let you know until it’s too late.

Hi Roman.
I don't understand this explanation. Neither torque wrench is going to give you a better idea if you're about to snap a bolt. As you tighten, one points to the desired setting you want, then you stop. As you tighten with the other, it clicks, to let you know you've reached the desired setting, then you stop. In either case, why would you continue to tighten the bolt when you can tell that the setting has been achieved?
On a pointer wrench, the pointer will NEVER stop as long as you are applying more torque. It will not stop moving until you have broken the bolt or you have flexed it to the far side of its scale, if possible. So to say that the pointer can stop moving as you continue to tighten, is impossible.
And with a click type wrench, you say they won't warn you if the bolt is about to break, until it's too late. They do warn you, by clicking. If you continue to tighten the bolt after the click... why?
And since it's been brought up, I think the chance to over torque or break a bolt is greater with the pointer type because you have to rely on eyesight. If you don't have a clear view straight at the pointer, the angle can cause you to over torque as well as under torque the bolt. Working on motorcycles, you usually have a good view, but sometimes the bolts are upside down, such as your oil drain bolt. And on car engines you can have problems seeing the pointer well.

Hi Keith.

I’ll do my best to explain. Lets say the torque to be set is 70 lbs you turn the wrench and the needle indicates 50lbs you keep turning but the needle doesn’t move to a higher calibration it remains at 50 lbs, to me this is a useful warning. It could mean that the bolt is starting to stretch beyond its usefulness and in a few more turns it will snap, probably a fault of mine because I’m too cheap to buy new bolts. The click type of torque wrench doesn’t show me the gradual increase of pressure as you turn the wrench. It only clicks when the job is done. I hope this helps.

Moto-dan,

I not arguing that one wrench is better then the other actually the click type is probably more accurate. I use both types and usually happy with the results of both; it’s just that I like the control of the pointer type of torque wrench.

Roman

[moto_dan]

Moto-dan,

I not arguing that one wrench is better then the other actually the click type is probably more accurate. I use both types and usually happy with the results of both; it’s just that I like the control of the pointer type of torque wrench.

Roman

I asked the question whether or not any of my previous reference links had been read and from your response I assume not...since all referred to the click type as being the least accurate and in fact the click type are calibrated with a beam type. I agree and understand with your description of using the beam type(which I prefer) although I've used both. IMO the click type builds false security since few people have them calibrated reqularly whereas according to my limited research the beam type retains its accuracy indefinitely if not used as a "breaker bar". :?

[Anonymous]

Moto-dan,

I not arguing that one wrench is better then the other actually the click type is probably more accurate. I use both types and usually happy with the results of both; it’s just that I like the control of the pointer type of torque wrench.

Roman

I asked the question whether or not any of my previous reference links had been read and from your response I assume not...since all referred to the click type as being the least accurate and in fact the click type are calibrated with a beam type. I agree and understand with your description of using the beam type(which I prefer) although I've used both. IMO the click type builds false security since few people have them calibrated reqularly whereas according to my limited research the beam type retains its accuracy indefinitely if not used as a "breaker bar". :?

Dan,
You are %100 correct I did not read the previous reference links but I promise you that I will.

Roman.

[Anonymous]

Moto-dan,

I not arguing that one wrench is better then the other actually the click type is probably more accurate. I use both types and usually happy with the results of both; it’s just that I like the control of the pointer type of torque wrench.

Roman

I asked the question whether or not any of my previous reference links had been read and from your response I assume not...since all referred to the click type as being the least accurate and in fact the click type are calibrated with a beam type. I agree and understand with your description of using the beam type(which I prefer) although I've used both. IMO the click type builds false security since few people have them calibrated reqularly whereas according to my limited research the beam type retains its accuracy indefinitely if not used as a "breaker bar". :?

Dan,
You are %100 correct I did not read the previous reference links but I promise you that I will.

Roman.

Dan,

I read it, thank you for bringing that to my attention.

Roman.

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Hi Roman.
You're opinion about pointer wrenches giving a warning before snapping a bolt, is based on false observation. You are saying that while torquing a bolt to 70 lbs, the pointer can stop at 50, even though you continue to tighten. This cannot happen if the pointer wrench is working right. The pointer moves up the scale in direct relation to how much pressure you are applying. The pointer cannot move if you don't apply pressure, and the pointer cannot stop moving as long as you continue to increase pressure.
As you are torquing up to 70 lbs, the only way the pointer is going to stop at 50, is if YOU stop increasing pressure. A pointer wrench simply could'nt work adequately if it stopped moving before you reached the desired torque setting.

[Anonymous]

Keith,

Here's how that works. The indicator only specifies the torque applied to a bolt. In theory as you turn the bolt and tighten it the required torque increases. If the bolt is going to break, the needle will fall indicating a decrease in torque while the bolt continues to turn.

You can also feel this when you overtighten a bolt. This is just another was of observing it.

[Anonymous]

Hi Keith,

I’m sure that I’m not doing a good job of explaining this. I might be born in Canada but there are times when I think English is a second language to me. Actually, as a child my first spoken words where in Ukrainian.

Anyways,
You’re absolutely right, but there is a point before a bolt snaps that it actually starts twisting and stretching weakening its hold onto the platform that you are bolting it to. This is when the pressure actually will begin to drop and drop to zero (this is the point when the bolt will be in two pieces ) even though you are going through the motion of tightening it.

Roman.

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Hi Keith,

I?m sure that I?m not doing a good job of explaining this. I might be born in Canada but there are times when I think English is a second language to me. Actually, as a child my first spoken words where in Ukrainian.

Anyways,
You?re absolutely right, but there is a point before a bolt snaps that it actually starts twisting and stretching weakening its hold onto the platform that you are bolting it to. This is when the pressure actually will begin to drop and drop to zero (this is the point when the bolt will be in two pieces ) even though you are going through the motion of tightening it.

Roman.

OK. I understand now that you are talking about the moment just before the bolt breaks. Yes, the pointer would stop moving and may even move back a little. Your discription of the pointer stopping at 50, when you are torquing to 70, just threw me.
I still don't understand why you would go past your desired setting in the first place and put yourself in the position of snapping the bolt. You should never get to the "warning point". When the pointer or click says you've reached the desired torque, you stop.
If someone is prone to go past their setting, then I can see your point.
I've never had that problem using either type of wrench, so your reasoning just did'nt click with me.
To use a torque wrench in that way is just defeating its purpose.

[Anonymous]

OK. I understand now that you are talking about the moment just before the bolt breaks. Yes, the pointer would stop moving and may even move back a little. Your discription of the pointer stopping at 50, when you are torquing to 70, just threw me.
I still don't understand why you would go past your desired setting in the first place and put yourself in the position of snapping the bolt. You should never get to the "warning point". When the pointer or click says you've reached the desired torque, you stop.
If someone is prone to go past their setting, then I can see your point.
I've never had that problem using either type of wrench, so your reasoning just did'nt click with me.
To use a torque wrench in that way is just defeating its purpose.

Hi Keith,
In the example that I used, the desired setting is 70 lbs not 50 lbs it’s just the bolt that I'm using for this example might happen to be old and fatigued, or defective. Thus not capable of reaching the desired torque setting of 70 lbs before breaking. I wouldn't purposely go beyond the recommended torque setting. But it would be interesting to find out at what a healthy bolt recommended to a 70 lbs torque would break at.

Roman.

[KEITH KRAUSE]

OK. You never mentioned in your earlier posts that you were talking about corroded/rusted bolts. I was thinking in terms of good condition bolts. I mentioned in my first post, the importance of inspecting the fastener before torquing. Thanks for your added info to this topic.
We should all be nuts and bolts experts by now!

[Anonymous]

Well - nuts anyway! 8)

[Planecrazy]

Just in case the above link for calibrating a torque wrench disappears, I'm pasting it into this thread with thanks to the gentleman at "thedieseldoctor" who originally posted it...


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Put the square drive of the wrench in a vise, making sure
that the body of the wrench isn't touching (only the square
drive touches the vise)

Ratchet the wrench to a horizontal position.

Okay, first, how to do the "micrometer" or "Click" type of
torque wrench (the beam needle type is below that, but bothe
start with the wrench held horizontal by clamping the square
drive in a vice in such a way that ONLY the square drive is
in contact with the vice).

Measure out from the center of the square drive (this coincides
with the center of the fastener, the wrench may or may not ratchet
about this same point).

You can determine the center of the square drive by the point
at which two diagonal lines from the corners of the square intersect.
Mark this distance on the handle. Choose somewhere convenient,
like at an even number of inches near where your hand would be.

Write down this distance in inches or feet, depending if your
wrench is marked in inch pounds (in. lb) or foot pounds (ft lb).

Get a weight, somewhere near the amount of force you might
typically extert on the handle (say, 20 lb, or 40 lb).

Multiply the distance from the center of the square drive by
the weight you will use.

If you wrench is a clicker type, set it to the number you
got when you multiplied the distance by the weight (inch lb
or ft lb). If it isn't the clicker type, read this anyway,
and then read the section on beam/pointer type wrenches.

Using bailing wire, hang the weight at the mark on the handle.

If the wrench clicks, lift the weight, move it closer to the handle,
let the weight hang at the new location. You might start by moving it
an inch or two, and see if it still clicks.

If it still clicks, keep moving it closer until it doesn't, then gradually
move farter out (away from the vice) until you find the transition
point between where it clicks, and where it doesn't.

Measure this distance. This is a new distance. You can now
use the ratio of the new distance, and the first (expected)
distance to determine a calibration factor.

If the wrench didn't click when you first tried hanging the weight,
find how much farther out you have to hang the weight to make it
click. try to find the transition point. Measure this distance.
You will similarly use this distance to determine a calibration ratio.

Let:

Ts = the torque setting on the wrench.
D1 = distance measured first (to the mark you made)
D2 = distance to point at which wrench actually clicked.
Ta = actual torque the wrench is applying.

So, if you set your wrench to a given torque value (Ts)
the torque it is actually applying is:

Ta = Ts x (D2/D1)

And, if you want a certain actual torque (Ta) applied to a fastener,
you would set your wrench to a value given by this equation:

Ts = Ta x (D1/D2)

Okay, put the wrench in the vise as described.

Mark it at 24" from the center of the square drive.

Get a 20 Lb weight.

Set the wrench to 480 inch lbs or 40 ft lbs.

Hang the weight on the line.
If it clicks, move it towards the vice, if it diesn't, move it
towards the free end (away from the square drive).

Find where the threshold between where it wil & won't
click is. Lets say that's at 26 inches.

Okay, the torque it applied when you first hung the weight was
480 inch lb.

The torque it took to make it click at that setting was 26 in. x 20 lb
= 520 in lb (divide by 12 to get ft lb)

But from now on, with this info, you can do the following...

If you want to apply a certain amount, say 50 ft. lb.,
Just multiply 50 by 24/26 (or 12/13 if you're watching)

so 50 x 12/13 = 46.15

So, to torque a bolt to 50 lb, set your wrench to 46 "and a hair" ft lb.

Easy enough, eh?

Actually, once you know the ratio (like 12/13 = .923)
all you have to do is multiply the torque you want on the
bolt by that number (.923) to tell you what setting to
put the wrench at.

__________________________________________________ ___________

Okay, for the beam / needle pointer type torque wrench:

Mark the torque wrench handle at a known distance from
the center of the square drive (you don't really even have
to mark it, just choose a convenient number like 10", 12",
24"...). Record this distance (D1).

Multiply the distence above by the weight.

Now move the hang point of weight along the handle until
the torque wrench needle is pointing to the value of torque
calculated above.

Measure the distance from the center of the square drive
to the point that the weight is now hanging, and that is the
the other distance (D2). These two distances will be used to
calculate a calibration ratio.

Now the equation is similar:

Let:
Ts = the torque that you will read on the pointer
D1 = the initial distance to apply the actual torque
D2 = the distance to make the needle point to the value calculated
Ta = the calculated torque from the cosen distance X known weight.

Okay here is an example.

I'll choose 24" (D1) and 20 lb again. We know that if we hang
a 20 lb weight 24" fron the center of the square drive, we are
applying 480 inch Lb (40 ft lb).

So, now we will move the weight until the needle points to
480 inch lb, or 40 ft lb. (if the needle was pointing to less
than the known torque, move the weight away from the square
drive (which is in the vice).

Now measure that distance (D2). Let's say it's 26"...

So, to torque a fastener to a desired value (say, 50 ft lb)

Using Ts = Ta x (D1/D2) = 50 x 24/26 = 50 x 12/13= 46.15

So if you pull on the torque wrench until the needle points to
46.15 ft lb you will be applying the desired 50 ft lb.

And there you have it.
Essentially, your torque wrench was reading lower than the
torque it was actually applying, so if you pulled on it until
it read the torque you wanted, you would be overtightening
the fastener.

And, once again, Actually, after you know the ratio
(like 12/13 = .923) all you have to do is multiply the torque you
want on the bolt by that number (.923) to tell you what setting to
read on the wrench to get that actual torque.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whew! Now there's plenty to chew on... 8)

[Anonymous]

Sorry I'm late to the party. I've been reading this topic with great interest. It's too bad that several members have engaged in a volley of unflatering remarks when the issue at hand is easily clarified.

Lets start with the proper way to check torque on a fastener.

The proper way to check the torque on any fastener is thus;
Using a calibrated torque wrench, remove fastener and note the amount of torque required to initially loosen the fastener. This is called "breakaway torque" and gives you a good indication of where the torque was before the fastener was removed. You may find that the breakaway torque was higher than the tightening torque specification due to corrosion adhesion.
Now, and this is the important part; clean the fastener using a wire brush and apply coating of anti-seize compound on the threads and below the head of the fastener. This is the ONLY way to properly torque a fastener to specification. Simply loosening the fastener and re-torqueing will not guarantee any accurate measurement.

Secondly, what is the best torque wrench to use:

In order of accuracy-

1. Dial type (typically +/- 2%)
2. Micrometer Click type (typically +/- 3%)
3. Split beam type (typically +/- 4%)

Split beam wrenches are NOT recommended for measurements below 50 Ft. lb. as the accuracy diminishes.

I worked as a professional test engineer for a major testing lab and also a major automotive supplier and we used dial type torque wrenches almost exclusively. They are very accurate and hold their calibration almost forever. We NEVER used micrometer click torque wrenches as they were prone to losing their calibrations. Micrometer type torque wrenches are used in production environments and by automotive technicians due to their convenience and must be re-calibrated often to insure accuracy. It's not uncommon to see these types of wrenches calibrated every 30 days depending on usage.

Split beam type wrenches are very good for most general torque measurements as their accuracy is usually well within the specified tolerances on most vehicle applications.

If you can afford to do so, buy and use a good dial type torque wrench.

I also re-build hi-performance automobile engines and have never had a bolt failure or seen one from properly using a split beam wrench.

Hope that clears things up a bit.

[Anonymous]

Hope that clears things up a bit.

Yeap it certainly does.

Thank you.

[Dark Jedi]

The cheap "pointer" kinds are a waste of money.

Saying that beam type torque wrenches are a waste of money is a bit harsh and not accurate. Mechanics 'got away' with using them for decades before the new models arrived. The new ones are in most cases more accurate and easier to use, but that doesn't take away from their utility and value.

What we really want to measure when we assemble a motor is the 'stretch' of the bolt. Torque an indicator of that and is an approximation as such. What you are then doing is getting as accurate a measurement of an approximation as you can. Boggles the mind.

From a former Metrologist who specialized in Phys/D...

Standards (At least the portable ones) are all dial type. They are more accurate, but harder to use properly. Clicker wrenches are the mechanic's friend because you set them and torque away. No need to contort yourself into odd positions to be able to read a dial.

Best torque wrenches Ever: PowerDyne wrenches. In years of calibrations, they remained accurate and repeatable longer than any other out there.

MAC torque wrenches sucked the big one. Never accurate from the factory, and quite often unable to be adjusted to within even 4%. Unacceptable. (I was aviation, where 2% is minimum, and we even had some applications that had to be accurate in the PPM range.)