1150 EF updating project

[Blower]

Hey Blower, how's progresss?

It's been a couple of months since your last report. Have you been able to get that idle down and the throttle response as you want it?
Are you still persevering with the stock cams?
I guess your roads will be ice free by now!
We are in mid winter here, but I still managed to get a ride in today.

We are in the middle of the summer right now here in Finland .
I get it to idle good enough and the throttle response is awesome !
I got those same stock cams .
The clutch had some slipping problems , but after oil and friction discs change the clutch was ok again .

Today EF was in the dyno and after that in the registration office . Now I got all its modifications in the registration paper .
The dyno result was quite low , only 132 hp in the rear wheel after fourth dyno run when the a/f ratio was 12.6 .
Torque was better , ower 100 Nm between 3100 and 9000 r/min and max 121 Nm in 6800 r/min .

 

[49er]

We are in the middle of the summer right now here in Finland .
I get it to idle good enough and the throttle response is awesome !
I got those same stock cams .
The clutch had some slipping problems , but after oil and friction discs change the clutch was ok again .

Today EF was in the dyno and after that in the registration office . Now I got all its modifications in the registration paper .
The dyno result was quite low , only 132 hp in the rear wheel after fourth dyno run when the a/f ratio was 12.6 .
Torque was better , ower 100 Nm between 3100 and 9000 r/min and max 121 Nm in 6800 r/min .

Did you set it up to keep the HP figure low for registration purposes? What was your max boost set at? Once the figures are recorded against the registration, what are the consequences of getting caught increasing it's output?
Our government hasn't fully embraced these measures yet.

That AFR figure is a bit low for ideal torque and HP. I got my best results for both on the 850 when the AFR was at 13.4. Max torque at 6700 and HP at 9000 rpm.

 

[Silvermachine81]

I got my best results for both on the 850 when the AFR was at 13.4. Max torque at 6700 and HP at 9000 rpm.

Who has a dyno in Hawkes Bay these days?
I remember someone got one not long before I left but I think he was struggling to get enough work coming in so he went off and worked as a Mechanical engineer?!
That was what he studied to become but I think his dream was obviously to have a High Performance bike tuning shop.

We had a great guy here in Christchurch.
He'd worked for Kenny Roberts and after a few years returned to NZ to setup a shop.
After running the business for a couple of years he went the whole 9 yards and built a purpose built dyno room and got a 'better than the standard model' dynojet dyno with all the extras but even though he worked all the hours god gave he ended up selling up and working on Fords.

 

[Blower]

Did you set it up to keep the HP figure low for registration purposes? What was your max boost set at? Once the figures are recorded against the registration, what are the consequences of getting caught increasing it's output?
Our government hasn't fully embraced these measures yet.

That AFR figure is a bit low for ideal torque and HP. I got my best results for both on the 850 when the AFR was at 13.4. Max torque at 6700 and HP at 9000 rpm.

I try to get max out from my bike . I think no one does not controll hp numbers after registration . Here in Finland you can take max 20% more hp after turbo- or supercharging .
I?m going to take the bike to the dyno again , when I have time .
I wait about 20 hp more from rear wheel .
Max boost was 0.4 bar and ignition was set at 27 degr. in max boost .
If I adjust afr a bit leaner and ignition timing to 29 - 30 degr , it should make a bigger hp .
I run my bike with 98 oct. fuel .

 

[49er]

Who has a dyno in Hawkes Bay these days?
I remember someone got one not long before I left but I think he was struggling to get enough work coming in so he went off and worked as a Mechanical engineer?!
That was what he studied to become but I think his dream was obviously to have a High Performance bike tuning shop.

We had a great guy here in Christchurch.
He'd worked for Kenny Roberts and after a few years returned to NZ to setup a shop.
After running the business for a couple of years he went the whole 9 yards and built a purpose built dyno room and got a 'better than the standard model' dynojet dyno with all the extras but even though he worked all the hours god gave he ended up selling up and working on Fords.

There is a company in the Onekawa Industrial area called Pro Cycles who have a purpose built dyno room. They run a modern Dynojet machine. Their core business is selling and servicing Harleys and Triumphs. The owner (Nigel) did look sideways when I presented the 850. He asked a lot of questions on the bikes service/modification history before he would agree to put it on his machine. He wouldn't be responsible if the "old engine blew up"!!

We warmed it up and then commenced the dyno session. He checked the AFR's progresively from 3000 - 8000 rpm with no load, then did the runs in 4th gear and with a 20% load. I told him I was happy to have him run it up to 10,000 rpm, which he did.

After the first run, he shook his head and said how the AFR's were ideal, especially as the bike hadn't been near a dyno previously.

The AFR dipped to 12.9 from 9000 - 10000 rpm. I have since fitted a reed valve system that has improved torque in the 8000 -10000 area. The reeds are solely used to control the increase of air to the carbs at the top end.

I need to re-dyno it now to confirm my "seat of the pants" impressions.

 

[49er]

I try to get max out from my bike . I think no one does not controll hp numbers after registration . Here in Finland you can take max 20% more hp after turbo- or supercharging .
I?m going to take the bike to the dyno again , when I have time .
I wait about 20 hp more from rear wheel .
Max boost was 0.4 bar and ignition was set at 27 degr. in max boost .
If I adjust afr a bit leaner and ignition timing to 29 - 30 degr , it should make a bigger hp .
I run my bike with 98 oct. fuel .

Not sure what the max ignition advance your TSCC engine will endure. I also run 98 octane in the 850 at 10.5-1 (185 psi) and run 39 deg total advance, 2 deg above stock.

I would be careful not to lean off more than 13.5 AFR with your setup. If you get too lean, you'll do some serious damage. The dynojet graphs show the ideal line at 13 AFR.

 

[Blower]

Have been try to adjust the efi below 2000 r/min , but it seems to be impossible to get it good .
I need to move the throttlebody as close as possible to the plenum ( need a smaller throttlebody , about 1.45" - 1.9" in diam. ) .
Now there is too big air volume between throttlebody and engine . Air starts to "pump" inside the whole inlet system below 2000 r/min .

 

[49er]

Have been try to adjust the efi below 2000 r/min , but it seems to be impossible to get it good .
I need to move the throttlebody as close as possible to the plenum ( need a smaller throttlebody , about 1.45" - 1.9" in diam. ) .
Now there is too big air volume between throttlebody and engine . Air starts to "pump" inside the whole inlet system below 2000 r/min .

Are you sure that the "pumping" at lower rpms isn't being caused by the amount of overlap between the valves?

 

[Blower]

Are you sure that the "pumping" at lower rpms isn't being caused by the amount of overlap between the valves?

I?m quite sure . I have talking with Arttu , who made my Megasquirt . He also thinks that it?s caused by too big intake system volume after throttle body .
I controll the cams few hundred miles ago and there was 4 degrees less overlap than the Suzuki manual says . When I built the engine i put the intake cam 2 degr. retarded and the exhaust cam 2 degr. advanced .

 

[49er]

I?m quite sure . I have talking with Arttu , who made my Megasquirt . He also thinks that it?s caused by too big intake system volume after throttle body .
I controll the cams few hundred miles ago and there was 4 degrees less overlap than the Suzuki manual says . When I built the engine i put the intake cam 2 degr. retarded and the exhaust cam 2 degr. advanced .

Ok, those changes will help. Looks like the intake volume may be the cause then.

 

[lecroy]

Have been try to adjust the efi below 2000 r/min , but it seems to be impossible to get it good .
I need to move the throttlebody as close as possible to the plenum ( need a smaller throttlebody , about 1.45" - 1.9" in diam. ) .
Now there is too big air volume between throttlebody and engine . Air starts to "pump" inside the whole inlet system below 2000 r/min .

Are you really moving the throttle body, or just going smaller? If you move it, are you thinking to have it after the pump?

I thought you had a bypass valve in there now to solve it? No improvements?

I have a friend with a home made bike that has the turbo way way out in front. Little draw thru system. That thing has loads of pipe and a very small motor. Seems to idle fine. I was always surprized because all that fuel/air has to go through all those bends and such before it gets into the engine.

You are thinking that it is hard to meter the small amount of air flow with a grand ganyon sized valve versus a garden hose?

 

[Blower]

Are you really moving the throttle body, or just going smaller? If you move it, are you thinking to have it after the pump?

I thought you had a bypass valve in there now to solve it? No improvements?

I have a friend with a home made bike that has the turbo way way out in front. Little draw thru system. That thing has loads of pipe and a very small motor. Seems to idle fine. I was always surprized because all that fuel/air has to go through all those bends and such before it gets into the engine.

You are thinking that it is hard to meter the small amount of air flow with a grand ganyon sized valve versus a garden hose?

I?m going to set a new smaller throttlebody as close as possible (without big modifications) to the plenum.So it will be in the pressure side of the supercharger .
It?also easier meter the air flow ( as you write ) , now the first 1/3 throttle is where it happens a most ( too big throttlebody ?) .

The bypass valve I made helps a lot , but there is still some difficulties to get efi working correct under 2000 r/min . Ie. when slowing down throttle off and pulling the clutch , the engine first rews up and then dies .
I have taking a datalog from Megasquirt , but it shows everything to be ok .

I think a bike with draw thru turbo and carburator is easier to get running idle and slow rews than a bike with roots type supercharger .

 

[lecroy]

That's a pretty big change to move the throttle body after the pump? But if it doesn't work the way you have it, there's no choice?

Having never played with with anything close to what your doing, I can't offer anything but a "good luck". Not sure why the little tubo bike would be easier to get things working. He does have a pretty small carb on it. Same basic arrangement you have. Turbo in front with long tube running from front to back of motor. Big difference is he puts the fuel in the front of the system. Hard to believe it works as good as it does. He rides it up to the line and back and it sounds very smooth when it does not explode. I have some pictures of it somewhere if you want me to dig them up.

 

[Blower]

That's a pretty big change to move the throttle body after the pump? But if it doesn't work the way you have it, there's no choice?

Having never played with with anything close to what your doing, I can't offer anything but a "good luck". Not sure why the little tubo bike would be easier to get things working. He does have a pretty small carb on it. Same basic arrangement you have. Turbo in front with long tube running from front to back of motor. Big difference is he puts the fuel in the front of the system. Hard to believe it works as good as it does. He rides it up to the line and back and it sounds very smooth when it does not explode. I have some pictures of it somewhere if you want me to dig them up.

It?s not so big change . Bypass is already at right place , I need to cut about 4" away from pressure pipe before plenum , install new throttle body with old tps-sensor and throttle cable , replace old throttlebody with pipe and start the engine .
Well , it?s maybe not so simple , but ...

There is one major differens between turbo and a supercharged systems .
When turbo charged engine is idling or going with light load the turbo does not make any pressure . Turbo nearly resisting airflow to the engine .
Supercharger spinns all the time at same amount over engine revs. ie my case 30% faster than engine trying to pull thru throttle body 42% more air than the engines displacement .
This together with too big intake system volume makes fine tuning in light loads difficult .

 

[Blower]

And yes , it would be nice to see pictures .

 

[lecroy]

I was thinking that this was the point of the by-pass. No pressure at idle, similar to the turbo.

I'll see if I can find them tonight for you.

 

[lecroy]

Sorry for the delay. The frame, fuel tank, body, exhaust are home made. He rides it to the line and back. Electric start. Has a Busa clutch on it now. Idles smooth with all that tube.

/nCowboy's turbo skunk bike

/nCowboy's turbo skunk bike

 

[Blower]

Wow , that?s a real rat dragster !
He?s got a lot smaller intake system volume , than I have . That?s why he?s bike idles
and runs smoothly .


Btw , here is my EF dyno sheet 07.16.2008

 

[lecroy]

> Wow , that?s a real rat dragster !
LOL! Its a skunk, not a rat. Notice the white stripe down it's back.

/nCowboy's turbo skunk bike

Yes, smaller intake and much smaller pistons to suck it down with.

Numbers look good so far. I assume that's SAE corrected on a wheel dyno.

 

[Blower]

> Wow , that?s a real rat dragster !
LOL! Its a skunk, not a rat. Notice the white stripe down it's back.

/nCowboy's turbo skunk bike

Yes, smaller intake and much smaller pistons to suck it down with.

Numbers look good so far. I assume that's SAE corrected on a wheel dyno.

It?s SAE corrected dyno and arear wheel power .

I get assembled a new throttlebody and dump valve . In the old tp place I put a pipe with aircleaner .
What a difference to the old system ! Idle is better than ever and low speed rideability is much better than before .
In the first testride I made some unwaited wheelies and burnouts . Now it perform?s like supercharged bike should .
Made a datalog ride today and datalog shows a more stabile boost on whole rpm range .
Boost is now from 4000 to 9000 r/min 0.42 bar .
And the sound ... supercharger noise is now much louder than before and every gear change the dump valve makes a loud PSHIIII sound .