1980 GS 750E starting/charging delema

[posplayr]

Your going to have to really explain that one. If I recall the sole purpose of a charging system is to charge, the battery. Of which my battery has always been fully charged. Considering that's all I expect the charging system to do, what does how well matter? A full battery that isn't dead and cranks long and fast with a headlight that's on is a full battery that isn't dead and cranks long and fast with a headlight that's on. I could care less how or why it got that way.

I mean you can try to pitch me all the parts and labor that do nothing but take money out of my wallet and riding time away from my season, but I don't fix things that aren't broke. No amount of numbers, math, logic, debate, studies, evaluation, or anything you can conjure up can convince me that my battery isn't fully charged when the meter shows 12.8v before I take the bike out in the morning.

If we are truly going to go into the full, throughly evalute for signs of performance not equivalent to new and replace parts if found to make performance on par with new then you need to replace every part of your bike. Not because it's broken and needs repair, but because it's not on par with new as far as tests are concerned and it won't last as long as a new part.

Personally, I'd rather ride but if you sleep better working on the bike when you could be riding then go for it.

Think about what decay is and how it is a natural part of physical processes as we know them. In general decay is irreversible and therefore monotonically increasing. To be anything else would be "self healing"; Do you think you charging system is "self-healing" ? Well if not it is on the slippery slope of decay.

The only cure for decay is maintenance(external healing as opposed to self healing). Optimally maintenance efficieny(maintenance which induces the maximum time between maintenance) is maintenance that maximizes the system performance (as designed). It gives the system the most tolerance to cumulative decay.

To a large extent, design modification to minimize system sensitivity to decay has the same practical value as maintenance. They both maximize the time between maintenance and so while one maximizes the system performance within the constraints of the design, and the other maximizes the performance with respect to decay they both go hand in hand to maximize time to maintenance.

The various recommendations for GS Charging Health fall into one of the other of these categories. There is a slipper slope it is the rate of cummultive decay. The frequency with which failures occur is is evidence enough of the slope. Everyones is different, depending upon environmental, usage, and as built manufacturing factors. Engineering principles will easily substantiate these facts.

However, the assumption that the decay slope is the result of an ergodic is not without peril. :-\\\ I can find no basis for you to take such a position.

Here is another guy that just likes to ride......................

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=222818

 

[Grimly]

However, the assumption that the decay slope is the result of an ergodic is not without peril.

One thing that rapidly became clear to me after I started owning GSs was that, given enough time and mileage, the charging system would fail eventually. No matter how much preventative maintenance was done, no matter what reg-rec (of the day) was fitted, no matter how careful one was of loads, it would eventually fail. Not today, not tomorrow, not next month, but sooner or later - it would fail.
Anyone who hasn't had a failure isn't riding enough, or is living on borrowed time.
The stator and reg-rec combo (even when replaced with a better Honda unit) was still crap, and the failure mode was simply beaten into the bush for a while, just waiting to come out and bite you on the ankle, usually when you were 400 miles from home at night.
I HATE bad design - I said that before. I utterly despise it. Suzuki managed to do a reasonable job with the rest of the bike and this Achilles heel was, to a certain extent, livable with, but not when one really depended on the bike being reliable and mobile around the clock. I was glad when the Honda RR substitution actually postponed failure for a while, but all it did was to shift the stress point in time for a while.
Bitter hard-won experience leads me to expect that another stator failure might happen, even with the series unit fitted. If the current stator fails, I'd not be surprised, it's a used unit after all. However, when I replace that with a fresh new stator and it fails eventually, I'll be looking seriously at driving a car alternator from the crank end. To that end I discovered a couple of casing mods available for the flywheel end...

 

[Killer2600]

Here is another guy that just likes to ride......................

In quantum mechanics, a broken bike may not really be broken

The difference between that guy and myself is I know how to fix it

But what should have been a negative, relating myself to lrgguy, is only reassurance that there are other's like myself that don't waste good riding weather fixing what isn't broken in the hopes that if we fix it, it won't break. :clap:

 

[posplayr]

In quantum mechanics, a broken bike may not really be broken

The difference between that guy and myself is I know how to fix it

But what should have been a negative, relating myself to lrgguy, is only reassurance that there are other's like myself that don't waste good riding weather fixing what isn't broken in the hopes that if we fix it, it won't break. :clap:

Actually it is both broken and not broken at the same time. Since it is both, it can't be not one or the other. :-\\\

Perhaps you are thinking of detection theory? Pr (1/0) and Pr (0/1)

 

[Steve]

There is a saying, I just can't quite put my finger on it.

Could it be one that I use quite often? :-k

Ignorance is bliss, and boy, am I happy.

But the issues laid out in the first post are ones of starting not charging but because everyone is so stator and R/R replacement happy they jump right on it.

To be more specific, the original post states the poster regards his ~3 year old battery as weak, he also charges it every night on a 1-2 amp trickle charger, says it usually starts fine and turns over slow. Still with me? Where in any of that does a charging system issue with the bike arise? Maybe if both the bike AND his trickle charger weren't working but the odds of that to meet everyone's "check your stator and R/R" response would be pretty astounding. I'm more inclined to look into the 3 year old batteries health than the health of his stator and R/R.

Well, he knows he is starting with a weak battery. What he might not realize is that he might be killing what's left of it by using a "trickle charger". :-k

If it is a MANUAL "trickle charger", it will sit there and slowly cook that battery with 1-2 amps the entire time it is connected. It will not taper off as it reaches full charge.

Even if it's an AUTOMATIC "trickle charger", it can still cook the battery, but it will take longer. It may start at 1-2 amps and taper off to less than 1/2 amp, but it's still too much for a constant charge.

It is better to use a battery MAINTAINER that will actually turn off the charge and monitor voltage, coming back on when needed. "Battery Tender" is one brand name, but somewhat expensive. Schumacher makes one that is available at Wal-Mart for about $20. If you are one who will avoid Wal-Mart, you can get the same exact unit, wearing a Die Hard label at Sears for about $30.



By the way, Killer, one reason to test the system at 5,000 rpm is because the charging characteristics are a bit different at that speed. A bike can charge PERFECTLY at 2-3k. In fact, that is about where it starts regulating. Turning the engine faster, it will start regulating more and more, ending up in saturation. THAT is where you want to do your testing.

.

 

[Guest]

I was gonna throw in my two cents worth in since I own one "of the chosen bikes" since new. Though after reading this thread, I would be better off talking to a brick wall huh. Better yet, I'll go get one of my several burned out stators and give it a good talking to instead. Yup, yup dats what I'ma gonna do.

 

[posplayr]

Steve, yea that's it

 

[Guest]

Okay, my stator just informed me I do indeed have one of the "chosen bikes", the one that eats stators! Thanks to posplayr and his research I no longer have that problem.

 

[posplayr]

Okay, my stator just informed me I do indeed have one of the "chosen bikes", the one that eats stators! Thanks to posplayr and his research I no longer have that problem.

Thanks , I'll pour another.

 

[Killer2600]

Well, he knows he is starting with a weak battery......Schumacher makes one that is available at Wal-Mart for about $20. If you are one who will avoid Wal-Mart, you can get the same exact unit, wearing a Die Hard label at Sears for about $30.

THAT is where you want to do your testing.

.

Very well true but I'm not concerned about his batteries lifespan at 3 years, depending on cost, he may have gotten his monies worth.

When the system breaks, I will test and repair it. Until then I will, as you say, "live in the ignorant bliss" that myself and millions of others live in when we don't take our not broken vehicles into the shop to be fixed before they break. Hey while we're being proactive in fixing things, when's the last time you had your tire changed? Might wanna change it before it goes flat on you.

Sarcasm aside, I'm thankful for your concern for my bikes well-being and I assure you it's in capable hands. As of last checkup, she's putting out good numbers and regulating throughout the band quite nicely.

 

[posplayr]

Very well true but I'm not concerned about his batteries lifespan at 3 years, depending on cost, he may have gotten his monies worth.

When the system breaks, I will test and repair it. Until then I will, as you say, "live in the ignorant bliss" that myself and millions of others live in when we don't take our not broken vehicles into the shop to be fixed before they break. Hey while we're being proactive in fixing things, when's the last time you had your tire changed? Might wanna change it before it goes flat on you.

Sarcasm aside, I'm thankful for your concern for my bikes well-being and I assure you it's in capable hands. As of last checkup, she's putting out good numbers and regulating throughout the band quite nicely.

I will refrain from a dissertation on corrective v.s. preventive maintenance. I don't want to cut into my drinking time. Being two fisted and typing do not mix.

 

[Grimly]

As of last checkup, she's putting out good numbers and regulating throughout the band quite nicely.

13.8V isn't as good as it should be.

 

[Killer2600]

I will refrain from a dissertation on corrective v.s. preventive maintenance. I don't want to cut into my drinking time. Being two fisted and typing do not mix.

What you call corrective maintenance, I call a repair. Nothing broken, nothing to repair. In the preventative maintenance department what are you going to do? Regrease connectors? Cleaning connectors would be a repair and not a PM by virtue of it fixing something that is wrong.

13.8V isn't as good as it should be.

Oh really, who says, and do tell

 

[Grimly]

Oh really, who says, and do tell

A proper running charge voltage should be up over 14V - getting on for 14.5V. Of course, if you don't run it at 5krpm to check it, you won't see that. Go on, give it a blast and if it gets over 14V, then well and good.
Might interest you to know that later calcium chemistry batteries look for 14.8V on the charging output. Less than that, they get short-lifed.

 

[posplayr]

What you call corrective maintenance, I call a repair. Nothing broken, nothing to repair. In the preventative maintenance department what are you going to do? Regrease connectors? Cleaning connectors would be a repair and not a PM by virtue of it fixing something that is wrong.

ROTW: Knock Knock
Killer: Who is there?
ROTW: The rest of the world Killer, the rest of the world.
Killer: What do you want?!?
ROTW: We would like to tell you about a technological revolution going on which is enabled by the information revolution, internet and cloud computing. We are leveraging what is called "Big Data" with something else we call machine intelligence to improve all of the rest of the world's processes. This primarily involves moving from reactive corrective and other inefficient methods to proactive predictive and more efficient methods. We find that the world is less chaotic that way, and is more predicable and we therefore make more money and have more free time.
Killer: Err what???
ROTW: Just thought we would let you know; have a good day.

 

[Killer2600]

A proper running charge voltage should be up over 14V - getting on for 14.5V. Of course, if you don't run it at 5krpm to check it, you won't see that. Go on, give it a blast and if it gets over 14V, then well and good.
Might interest you to know that later calcium chemistry batteries look for 14.8V on the charging output. Less than that, they get short-lifed.

Well, it's a good thing I'm not using calcium chemistry batteries. Also if you really want to test a charging system you load test it and look at current output. FTR 13.6-13.8 was before doing any work so unless making things better somehow make the numbers worse - which goes against everyone's pitch to make things better - then I have even less to worry about after what I've done.

ROTW: Just thought we would let you know; have a good day.

Like I said before, you can come up with any combination of words formed into sentences into paragraphs that you like. It still doesn't change my charged battery into a dead one. Honestly, maybe you should skip the middle man and just talk to my motobatt, convince it it's not being charged by the bike.

Don't mistake, I'm not ignorant of the broken but, I don't need to repair things just because other people repair those things on their bike. If it isn't broken (showing/indicating signs of improper operation) then there is no reason to fix it - I'm confident in my diagnostic and repair abilities that I don't seek solace in seeking out and repairing potential problems to garner the illusion of reliability for a 32 year old machine. If the machine should fail, I will fix it, until then I will run it.

 

[posplayr]

. If the machine should fail, I will fix it, until then I will run it.

Killer: Knock Knock
TROW: Who is there?
Killer: Killer
TROW: What do you want?
Killer: I just love bittersweet chocolate covered red liquorice. Doesn't everybody cause I sure do.
TROW:I don't think so.
Killer: Are you sure because I sure love them.
TROW: No killer we all don't love your favorite candy.

 

[Killer2600]

Killer: Knock Knock
TROW: Who is there?
Killer: Killer
TROW: What do you want?
Killer: I just love bittersweet chocolate covered red liquorice. Doesn't everybody cause I sure do.
TROW:I don't think so.
Killer: Are you sure because I sure love them.
TROW: No killer we all don't love your favorite candy.

Said by someone who really wishes my bike would fail to properly charge just so they could say "I told you so"

 

[Guest]

Wow, unreal just unreal.

 

[JTGS850GL]

Amazing that someone can't understand the basic concept of preventive maintenance. To just wait for something to fail doesn't make sense. If I lived in that world then changing my oil would only occur if the engine seized from no oil.