1985 GS450 starting issues

[dennco2]

I started this thread I think back in November. I put this GS450 project aside for the winter and now getting back on it.

I pulled the starter button apart and filed the contact points. Put it back together with coil spring. It now activates the starter relay! Now I have a new problem that baffles me. I think the engine started to fire on the left cylinder but when I let off the starter button ... I heard the starter motor continue to rev and wouldn't release. The engine would not run faster than at idle, just like back in November and only on one cylinder. I desperately was trying to stop the engine/starter motor and turned off the ignition switch, kill switch ... then put it in 1st gear and it would not stop till it ran the battery down or motor got hot, I guess.

So can someone tell me what happened there? Apparently, the starter clutch did not release as it should and the ignition switch should have shut off power to the starter motor? I just pulled the stator cover off to look inside and also the starter motor cover. Don't see anything obviously wrong in there. The starter gears are supposed to turn one way freely, right? It did turn but not freely. Since the motor does not turn the engine over with much power, I suspect it need rebuilding. Have not pulled it out as yet to inspect.

I don't have the tools Suzuki recommends to pull things apart. I do have a Suzuki manual and will try to solve these problems if possible after your good suggestions. Otherwise, does someone in this group know a qualified group member in the Seattle area who can help out for $$?

Also, I will need a cover gasket now ... any recommendations?

 

[dennco2]

"After a brief cleaning,"

These tiny passages don't always respond to "brief" cleaning- that's why folks on here talk about the 24 hour dip. Some folks have to do it twice! Stuff could be jammed up somewhere on path back to fuel bowl. Or Look for an ultrasonic guy near you who has experience with carbs. Without a clean pilot circuit, these things run poorly.

did you get the o-ring kit from cycleorings.com ? 30 year old o-rings are past their sell date. I don't know if the 80-82 kit is the same as the 85 version, but inquire (he's a member on here)- good info on his site

http://www.cycleorings.com/450.html

Hi tom203, I attempted 3 times to send you a PM but never got a confirmation it was sent ... or show up as "sent items". Looking forward for good advice here to proceed intelligently.

 

[tom203]

I got those 3 messages when I logged ithis AM.

It's possible that the starter solenoid has failed internally and is locking "on" - neither key or kill switch would then be able to cut power then. If you still have the stator cover off, just remove the immediate gears and test solenoid. The small wire on solenoid is the trigger wire - when starter button is pushed, this wire gets 12 volt positive,which triggers solenoid "on". But when button is released, solenoid should disengage and starter motor stops spinning . An internal short in solenoid might let it stay engaged. You can always disconnect a battery cable to kill power to solenoid.
You need to fix this issue before you return to carb issues!

Edit: since you fiddled with right hand switch, you might have misconnected it somehow. Both the key switch and run switch should have killed ignition system, though the solenoid might have failed as described above and let starter motor still run.

 

[dennco2]

The picture I posted shows the smaller gears that slide in and out on that hollow shaft. The gears slide without any resistance and stay wherever I leave them. Is there supposed to be a spring action there to snap it in or out when start button is released? Is that the "start solenoid" you speak of ... or the large solenoid (relay) on the left side of frame connected directly to the battery?

My knowledge is very limited in these area. Is the starter clutch mounted behind rotor? I attempted to turn that part by hand and could not turn it either way! Supposed to turn one way freely? Not this one!

 

[tom203]

That hollow shaft that holds the intermediate gears will slide out towards you to let you remove those gears; beware, there is likely a thin washer/spacer on other side of the hollow shaft,so try to catch it!
Once those intermediate gears are out, you should be able to spin that big gear in one direction only - this gear drives the starter clutch that spins the rotor. Does this happen?

 

[dennco2]

Yes, I pulled out the intermediate gears and hollow shaft but did not see any thin washer. I then tried to turn the large gear both ways and it turned freely in the clockwise direction. Locked up on counterclockwise. Seems all is good there?

 

[tom203]

Starter clutch seems good... while the intermediate gears are out, grab the shaft on the starter motor, it should turn easily and not bind up. Hopefully it will.
Now you have to figure out why/if the solenoid locked up and why the key switch and kill switch did not kill power to solenoid to disengage it. Leave the intermediate gears out- no sense killing the starter motor till you fix this issue. You can always pull off a battery cable to kill power.

 

[dennco2]

I just tested the starter solenoid twice and all was well when I pushed the starter button and then released ... the starter motor ran fine and stopped immediately. Still perplexed on how the intermediate gears can align or miss align to the large gear as it slides in and out? I will pull the intermediate gears back out to check the starter motor for ease of rotation.

This 450 has not ran for about 3 years, so some gremlins to be expected. Was hoping to get lucky in that area. I will go thru and clean up as many electrical connections as I can to get my system voltage up as high as possible. Then tackle the carb issue again.

Update: Okay I am learning more each day. I saw the housing design of the stator cover and how it supports the outside hollow shaft of the intermediate starter gears. Also, the starter motor has a lot of drag when attempting to rotate by hand .... seems sluggish. And when I fed power to the motor thru the starter button ... it didn't spin up near like I would expect. So I attempted to pull the starter motor, but couldn't clear the cam chain tensioner. So now I am reading up on how to pull it and retension later. Should I also pull the carbs now to create more working space? The carbs also will need more dipping in solvent before attempting to engine operation. I will need to see if fuel is in the right fuel bowl AND why fuel is not allowed to suck into the engine.

 

[Guest]

Yes, I pulled out the intermediate gears and hollow shaft but did not see any thin washer. I then tried to turn the large gear both ways and it turned freely in the clockwise direction. Locked up on counterclockwise. Seems all is good there?

It seems as though the washer was deleted on the 450 but was there on the old style 400 [?] and some other motors. Given that there is no end thrust with these gears it was irrelevant. Putting one in could result in binding - maybe.

 

[tom203]

The sluggishness of starter motor might mean that it got damaged with the locked on episode. It should turn freely by hand with no sense of binding. They can be rebuilt (new brushes, bearings,etc.) or you can find them on ebay. The 450 shares the starter motor with the gs300 and the shafty 650's. Get it out and check p/n

"Okay I am learning more each day. " yep!


Edit: check this thread for pic

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?247914-Starting-problem&p=2410186#post2410186

 

[dennco2]

So yesterday I pulled the carbs, tensioner and starter motor off the bike. Pulled the starter apart and looks like it just needs a good cleaning with 3/4 length brushes left.

Before I pulled the tensioner off I loosened the locknut and tightened the left setscrew ... then re tightened the locknut. Did nothing with the right side spring adjuster. However when I pulled the unit off the engine ... the tensioner in the center extended to full out. I thought the setscrew was supposed to prevent that tensioner from moving? I'll make sure I don't move the engine and put it back in as soon as I finish the starter motor.

 

[tom203]

No worry, you can reset and reinstall tensioner correctly later. When you put starting motor back in, leave carbs off till you are sure that starting motor has enough umph to spin motor.

 

[dennco2]

Carb bodies are soaking in a can of Berrymans cleaner and will for a couple of days. I printed out 77 pages of Ed Ness' tutorial on carb cleaning/rebuilding and this time everything has been removed for a complete job. Previous efforts to clean skipped over a couple of fine but important passage ways.

Cleaning of my starter motor helped the power and rpms. Some sludge has gotten on the com so I cleaned and polished it while spinning on an electric drill motor. Only minor grunge elsewhere internally. I cranked the engine with it and it is way better than before. The tensioner is also back in and adjusted.

I'm starting to think this old bike might actually run (well) after getting everything put back on this time. 10 month ownership and haven't rode it yet.

 

[dennco2]

I have finished cleaning the 2 GS carbs on my 450LF. Somehow I managed to lose a 5 mm float bowl screw and trying to find a new or used replacement. Also would like to find 2 replacement fuel bowl drain screws (or same size 6mm bolt) so I can drill a hole and test the fuel level through clear tubing. Stopped by a Suzuki dealer and no luck. The 85 carb uses a screw, not a cap ... if someone on this forum has any spares to sell.

Then again, I was methodical about setting the float height ... so maybe a fuel height check is not essential.

During the 2 carb RE-clean, I found flow restrictions in the pilot and choke plunger small passageways. I am not too happy with the Berryman's carb and parts dip ... as I dipped the carbs for 48 hours and many parts and passageways still clogged. I put all the jets and important small parts in a dish after dipping and left them there, only to find days later they had all gummed up again from the dip solution. So I shot them with WD40 and blew them out with compressed air at 115 psi. I still had to poke all the little holes in the pilot jets and emulsion tubes with various size piano wire to get all holes to their full size. I had to blow into the pilot jet hole and cover up and release the air and jet screw openings to verify all was flowing well. Same with the choke system all the way down to the float bowl. These carbs were PLUGGED! .... but now I believe will flow fuel and air like new.

Can someone tell me if I should bother to test the float system and fuel height with modified test drain screws? Or just re-install the 2 carbs back on the bike and fire the engine to see how it runs after everything gets reconnected?

 

[Gorminrider]

.

I still had to poke all the little holes in the pilot jets and emulsion tubes with various size piano wire to get all holes to their full size.

Me too. none of these magics work any better than paint thinner or kerosene and some little wires and dowels and air etc... for me either.

You can test the operation of carb floats "outside" (or "beside" the bike ) bike before the nuisance of installation. Basically, fuel level comes to just below bowl gasket.
On the bike, I do this (link below) on the occassions I feel I need to know -it's primitive and not exact but if you haven't already been bending on the float tang, it is probably ok as to factory setting.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_foru...b-float-level(s)-height&p=2378677#post2378677

 

[dennco2]

Yahoo! The old Suzuki GS450 fired up with some added choke and sounded good from idle to midrange rpms. Vibration is more than I am used to compared to my 4 cylinder Blackbird. Valves sounded quiet and normal ... but I will check them soon.

Thanks to all guys here who added their fine knowledge and suggestions! Now for the test ride. Bike odometer show about 21,000 miles so chances are I have more challenges ahead in this restoration. I feel in good hands tho ... with this group.

 

[whkrems]

I had this " The battery read 13.2 after charge but the next morning it went down to 12.6".
I had 'start only with ether'.
Started shutting down with kill switch, leave kill switch off til restart.
Problem 'start only with ether' is gone. Anyone else ever have this? Any explanation why this would work? Wiring diagram shows kill switch between one side of starter button and the igniter with taps for coils on the way.
Update, Start only with ether problem is back after bike not run for a week.

 

[tom203]

"Wiring diagram shows kill switch between one side of starter button and the igniter with taps for coils on the way."

The kill switch cuts off power to both the starter button and the ignition system. Are you sure that turning off with kill switch is not a placebo effect, masking off problems?
What bike/mdel/year are you having this issue with? Consider starting a new thread- you'll likely get more action.

 

[whkrems]

Thanks will start new thread.
You might be right. After a week or so not running problem is back. No start without ether.
1982 GS650G