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Big Rich
Guest
Phil, if you do go thru with a little hybrid motor, don't forget to order the "small things" as well. Base gasket, head gasket, piston rings, etc.. It would be a shame to get snagged up on a minor detail......
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Guest
Guest
Seeing as the 500 piston only comes up so far and its below the deck of the cylinder block. And that the dome on top of the 500 piston is a little shorter than the 450's. I think You could get away with the 500 base gasket and the 500 head gasket. That way the head would have only droped by 0.43 and it would bring the compression up to 10.1:1 I think. Its hard to say without knowing the exact CC's of a 450 head.
On the 500 head there are 4 washers around the 4 studs that seal the oil channels.
You'll need those as well.
you could get the gasket for the tensioner or make one.
To retract the tensioner on those you have to take the rubber plug out of the end and turn the screw to rewind the plunger until its all the way out. I think you can give it another half turn and then take the screwdriver out and it should stay that way until you have it installed. Then you just turn it back the other way slightly and it will spring out.
While you have the engine apart, inspect the chain guides for cracking. Replace them if they are bad. I don't think they are expensive.
You could use a degree wheel and a dial indicator for dialing in the cam's perfectly.
Here is a link to print one off.
Then just stick it onto anything round with a hole in the middle and put it on the stator side.
You can find out where the center of the lobe is and that's what we will adjust. I don't think it will be far off. It might be ok just the way it is as long as there is no valve interference. But if there was it should only be with the exhaust valve. The valves are moving out of the way of the piston coming up and then the intake valves chase it on the way down. By retarding the cam timing your making the exhaust valve stay down just a little longer and the intake valve doesn't come down until a bit later.
On the 500 head there are 4 washers around the 4 studs that seal the oil channels.
You'll need those as well.
you could get the gasket for the tensioner or make one.
To retract the tensioner on those you have to take the rubber plug out of the end and turn the screw to rewind the plunger until its all the way out. I think you can give it another half turn and then take the screwdriver out and it should stay that way until you have it installed. Then you just turn it back the other way slightly and it will spring out.
While you have the engine apart, inspect the chain guides for cracking. Replace them if they are bad. I don't think they are expensive.
You could use a degree wheel and a dial indicator for dialing in the cam's perfectly.
Here is a link to print one off.
Then just stick it onto anything round with a hole in the middle and put it on the stator side.
You can find out where the center of the lobe is and that's what we will adjust. I don't think it will be far off. It might be ok just the way it is as long as there is no valve interference. But if there was it should only be with the exhaust valve. The valves are moving out of the way of the piston coming up and then the intake valves chase it on the way down. By retarding the cam timing your making the exhaust valve stay down just a little longer and the intake valve doesn't come down until a bit later.
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phillipjohnw
Guest
Wally, its not that bad once you start reading.
Rich, not to be offensive but replacing gaskets and the little things is a no brainer to me. I work with high energy nuclear fluid systems all day every day, hooyah navy, there isn't a joint I would break into without replacing gaskets, studs, and nuts.
Mekanix, thanks again for all the info. I'll definitely check the can chain pieces when I get it apart.
Rich, not to be offensive but replacing gaskets and the little things is a no brainer to me. I work with high energy nuclear fluid systems all day every day, hooyah navy, there isn't a joint I would break into without replacing gaskets, studs, and nuts.
Mekanix, thanks again for all the info. I'll definitely check the can chain pieces when I get it apart.
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Guest
Guest
Send a message to Wera90ex. He has done this exact mod and he also has raced these engines like that. Definitely more knowledge there than I have 
Just in case I'm missing something.
Just in case I'm missing something.
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phillipjohnw
Guest
welp, the parts fairy came this weekend. I'll get some pictures once
I find my camera and figure out how to post them. A couple things I noticed that have brought up questions. I knew the pistons had some carbon built up on them from the pictures, but what do y'all prefer to use for removing it. I hear that seafoam is fairly popular, other than that I was going to use a wire brush and get them as clean as elbow grease will allow. The thing I'm more worried about is one of the pistons is stuck in the sleeve. Its probably me being a little girl about banging up newish parts, but how would you guys go about it. The other one came out fairly easily when I pushed from the bottom. I feel like heating it in the oven would help, but I also don't want to remove the sleeve.
If you'll excuse me I have some pictures to take.
I find my camera and figure out how to post them. A couple things I noticed that have brought up questions. I knew the pistons had some carbon built up on them from the pictures, but what do y'all prefer to use for removing it. I hear that seafoam is fairly popular, other than that I was going to use a wire brush and get them as clean as elbow grease will allow. The thing I'm more worried about is one of the pistons is stuck in the sleeve. Its probably me being a little girl about banging up newish parts, but how would you guys go about it. The other one came out fairly easily when I pushed from the bottom. I feel like heating it in the oven would help, but I also don't want to remove the sleeve.
If you'll excuse me I have some pictures to take.
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phillipjohnw
Guest
Apparently I can only upload one picture at a time.
Nevermind I figured it out.
Nevermind I figured it out.
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Big Rich
Guest
No offense taken Phil! Just wanted to point it out - not imply that you would overlook a minor detail.
As far as that piston goes - I would try soaking the edges in penetrating oil and then tapping it out with wood. What about freezing the entire assembly as well?
As far as that piston goes - I would try soaking the edges in penetrating oil and then tapping it out with wood. What about freezing the entire assembly as well?
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phillipjohnw
Guest
I appreciate you pointing it out, not everyone has the ridiculous work controls that were beaten into me.
I didn't even think of penetrating oil. Must have just slipped my mind or something. As for cooling, I was actually thinking the exact opposite. Cooling would cause everything to contract and thus hold the piston tighter. Heating, in my opinion would cause expansion and theoretically make it easier to remove. This is all dependent on the individual materials and their volumetric coefficient for thermal expansion. Again stupid things you learn dealing with high temp/pressure systems and namely valves that like to get stuck.
Either way its probably not going to happen because my wife won't let me put it in the oven or freezer.
I didn't even think of penetrating oil. Must have just slipped my mind or something. As for cooling, I was actually thinking the exact opposite. Cooling would cause everything to contract and thus hold the piston tighter. Heating, in my opinion would cause expansion and theoretically make it easier to remove. This is all dependent on the individual materials and their volumetric coefficient for thermal expansion. Again stupid things you learn dealing with high temp/pressure systems and namely valves that like to get stuck.
Either way its probably not going to happen because my wife won't let me put it in the oven or freezer.
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phillipjohnw
Guest
Aren't those the best details to overlook?
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Big Rich
Guest
Always.
It may sound crazy.....but I read somewhere online before about getting pistons out. It was on a tractor restoration forum or something. But they made a mixture of some sort on top of the piston crown, and lit it on fire. Looked like a tiki torch. Whatever the mixture was, the oil soaked past the rings, and the fire warmed everything else up and it would break free.
Either way, you'll get that piston out, I'm sure. I'm watching your motor build with great interest - next winter I'll probably be building 1 or 2 motors up myself.
It may sound crazy.....but I read somewhere online before about getting pistons out. It was on a tractor restoration forum or something. But they made a mixture of some sort on top of the piston crown, and lit it on fire. Looked like a tiki torch. Whatever the mixture was, the oil soaked past the rings, and the fire warmed everything else up and it would break free.
Either way, you'll get that piston out, I'm sure. I'm watching your motor build with great interest - next winter I'll probably be building 1 or 2 motors up myself.
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phillipjohnw
Guest
That's a lot of pressure. I guess I'll have to tie my camera to my arm so I don't forget.
I did see a picture of a tiki cylinder like you mentioned, don't know what they used to do it though.
I know its not a gs, but this is what I think I'm going to shoot for in the end. I don't think I'm up to cutting and welding the frame right now, but a guy can dream.
I did see a picture of a tiki cylinder like you mentioned, don't know what they used to do it though.
I know its not a gs, but this is what I think I'm going to shoot for in the end. I don't think I'm up to cutting and welding the frame right now, but a guy can dream.
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phillipjohnw
Guest
Well got a little work done tonight. Engine is still in the bike, but I did get the stuck piston out and most of the carbon cleaned off. Whoever I got the cylinders and piston from didn't compress the bottom ring all the way when they slid it into the piston and through shipping it must have gotten jammed in. The ring is toast, but there was no visible damage to the sleeve.
Is there any trick to getting the piston rings in or out easily? The top two I can pull with my hands, but the bottom one with the oil channel is a bit more of a challenge.
I'll get some more pics up tomorrow if I can.
Is there any trick to getting the piston rings in or out easily? The top two I can pull with my hands, but the bottom one with the oil channel is a bit more of a challenge.
I'll get some more pics up tomorrow if I can.
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Guest
Guest
Rings are worth replacing anyways.
Rings are easy to get out. That bottom one is actually 3 pieces. Start with the thin outside ones and the center will come out.
Rings are easy to get out. That bottom one is actually 3 pieces. Start with the thin outside ones and the center will come out.
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phillipjohnw
Guest
Here are some more pics.
This is the banged up bottom ring.
Slowly getting cleaned up.
Engine is out finally.
Another shot.
This is the banged up bottom ring.
Slowly getting cleaned up.
Engine is out finally.
Another shot.
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Guest
Guest
You should be able to get that ring off without too much trouble. Just take the bottom one off first and the middle will drop down a bit and let you take the top one off.
Its worth replacing rings to get a good seal and have them hone in properly.
Pin circlips as well are worth replacing.
SOS pads work well for cleaning the top gasket material off the top and bottom of the block. Use hot soap and water and rinse the cylinders and get oil on them asap.
Try and clean up the engine before you take the block off.
The crud that gets into the middle cylinder studs usually falls into the case.
If you get some in there, its important to wash it out. It would be better if you could pick the stuff out or vacuum it first.
Its worth replacing rings to get a good seal and have them hone in properly.
Pin circlips as well are worth replacing.
SOS pads work well for cleaning the top gasket material off the top and bottom of the block. Use hot soap and water and rinse the cylinders and get oil on them asap.
Try and clean up the engine before you take the block off.
The crud that gets into the middle cylinder studs usually falls into the case.
If you get some in there, its important to wash it out. It would be better if you could pick the stuff out or vacuum it first.
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phillipjohnw
Guest
Mekanix you have been way too helpful.
I do have a really dumb question though. On the valve cover where the camshafts bearings are there are two flimsy looking come covers. I know that to get them off I need a Philips head screwdriver and I can reach the outside ones, but the center most ones I can't reach because the top end is in the way. I can get an offset screwdriver in the hole, but its not long enough to reach the screw. Am I doing something wrong or do I need a longer offset screwdriver? Is there a trick to getting them off or can I just tear them out? Do I really need them?
No more updates unless you count dropping the motor on my foot trying to move it. Luckily I was still in my work clothes and had steel toe boots on.
I do have a really dumb question though. On the valve cover where the camshafts bearings are there are two flimsy looking come covers. I know that to get them off I need a Philips head screwdriver and I can reach the outside ones, but the center most ones I can't reach because the top end is in the way. I can get an offset screwdriver in the hole, but its not long enough to reach the screw. Am I doing something wrong or do I need a longer offset screwdriver? Is there a trick to getting them off or can I just tear them out? Do I really need them?
No more updates unless you count dropping the motor on my foot trying to move it. Luckily I was still in my work clothes and had steel toe boots on.
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wally
Guest
Cool! Wonder how long those walls are gonna stay white? 
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Guest
Guest
You don't need to do it at all
. Take all the bolts off and those covers stay with the valve cover.http://www.cmsnl.com/suzuki-gs450-l-1983-usa_model16019/partslist/92448.html#results
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Guest
Guest
Yep, you don't need to remove them. Two philips heads hold each cam end cover on, and they're pretty much impossible to get off with the valve cover in place.
If you do take them off for whatever reason, use blue loctite on the screws when putting them back on.
If you do take them off for whatever reason, use blue loctite on the screws when putting them back on.
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bwanna
Guest
Hey, I just finished upgrading my 450 to a 500 and wanted to let you know that I didn't change anything other than the cylinder block (and little things). I didn't change the timing sprockets, wanted to see what would happen. So far, the bike is running very well with better pull at the lower RPMs... something I didnt' have with the 450.
More than happy to IM if you have any questions. I'm not an expert like others, just offering.
Also, regarding the pistons. I soaked them in carb dip (Gunk brand) and then carefully used a small flathead screwdriver to pickout the stubborn pieces of gunk where the rings fit. Also, IF you do use a wire brush (on your drill???) I suggest using a hard plastic and not a metal one. You don't want to mark up the pistons at all. I'm sure you know this already, so just emphasizing. I actually used 800 grit wet sandpaper to smooth out the top of the piston. Now with new rings I'm getting compression of 150psi on both cylinders.
More than happy to IM if you have any questions. I'm not an expert like others, just offering.
Also, regarding the pistons. I soaked them in carb dip (Gunk brand) and then carefully used a small flathead screwdriver to pickout the stubborn pieces of gunk where the rings fit. Also, IF you do use a wire brush (on your drill???) I suggest using a hard plastic and not a metal one. You don't want to mark up the pistons at all. I'm sure you know this already, so just emphasizing. I actually used 800 grit wet sandpaper to smooth out the top of the piston. Now with new rings I'm getting compression of 150psi on both cylinders.
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