81 450 engine noise

[tjrriffic]

Greetings all. Picked up a cream puff on the cheap and got her running. She sounds like poop however. I wanted to say it was valve chatter but it seems to be coming from the bottom end up front. When I turn the motor by hand, i get resistance and an impact sound possibly from the left front of the case. Is there something balancer or flywheel related that could have been moved and is now hitting something?
Things touched were:
Carb removed
cam chain tensioner removed
starter removed,
both left side covers removed
cam and breather cover removed
I had to go grab some tools and the person who was helping me said they heard a "click" in the motor when they removed the tensioner. In my head, I dont know where this could have come from or could be the issue. The tensioner shoe still seems to be in place.
Any assistance is greatly appreciated. This forum really opened my eyes to what a great little bike this is.

 

[Guest]

Hi and welcome!

Yeah these 450's are great machines, can't wait to finish mine...

Anyway, there's a balance shaft that runs directly off the crankshaft in front of it, so it's possible I guess that there's a bearing issue there.

If all you did was remove those parts, I can't see that affecting the bottom end negatively.

I can't seem to find a good pic of that area at the moment, but when you rotate the crankshaft, you should see the alternator rotor rotate and you should also see the end of the counter balance shaft in front of it rotating in the opposite direction.

When the cam chain tensioner was removed, did it get locked in place first?

 

[BassCliff]

Hi Mr. tjrriffic,

The bottom end, up front, on the left could be the starter clutch, or something has come loose around the stator. You won't know until you take off the left engine case and have a look.

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BassCliff

 

[Guest]

Here Pete.

tjrriffic the ballancer is spring loaded. the springs could have failed and the ballancer might also have some end play.

I had to go grab some tools and the person who was helping me said they heard a "click" in the motor when they removed the tensioner.

I'm assuming that click was the cam adjusting to the slack in the chain and could have jumped a tooth.
It would be prudent to take the cam cover off and check it.


How did everything look/feel under the left cover ?

one way clutch,
loose stator,
evidence of rubbing on stator or magnet inner side.
end play of crank or ballancer

 

[Woodsy]

I vote its the tensioner

 

[Guest]

Here Pete.

tjrriffic the ballancer is spring loaded. the springs could have failed and the ballancer might also have some end play.

I'm assuming that click was the cam adjusting to the slack in the chain and could have jumped a tooth.
It would be prudent to take the cam cover off and check it.


How did everything look/feel under the left cover ?

one way clutch,
loose stator,
evidence of rubbing on stator or magnet inner side.
end play of crank or ballancer

Cheers mate! Too many pic's in my photobucket now and it's getting hard to find a specific one... I knew I should've labelled them!

I vote its the tensioner

Quite possible, although coming from front/left... hmmm...

 

[Woodsy]

thats where my noise sounds like its coming from, but i'm almost 100% its the fuel tap

If the tensioner was removed and you get resistance now i would say that is the chain bunching up, tensioners are a pain in the butt

 

[Guest]

Interesting! Funny how noise travels... I'm keen to see what the cause of this one is...

 

[tjrriffic]

*Sniff sniff* I love you guys already. Thanks for the great info. I'll remove top end today and tell you my results. Anyone do this while still in the frame or is this bench work?

 

[BassCliff]

Hi,

If you wanted to, you could replace the base gasket without removing the engine.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[tjrriffic]

Here Pete.

tjrriffic the ballancer is spring loaded. the springs could have failed and the ballancer might also have some end play.

I'm assuming that click was the cam adjusting to the slack in the chain and could have jumped a tooth.
It would be prudent to take the cam cover off and check it.


How did everything look/feel under the left cover ?

one way clutch,
loose stator,
evidence of rubbing on stator or magnet inner side.
end play of crank or ballancer

Upon redoing the timing, I'm thinking the balancer might be the culprit as the sound is still there upon rotation of the motor. Top end is off. Am I able to continue with motor in frame? From the pic, can I remove the top case half or drop the bottom out to check the balancer?
Thanks guys!

 

[Guest]

I wouldn't be doing the case split in the frame myself.

I'm not sure if it's possible or not, but it would be incredibly awkward to get the leverage to split the cases if you could get access to all the bolts...

 

[tjrriffic]

Hey all. I've got the cases split and only chipped 2 fins! So I know it was mentioned that the balancer internals (springs etc)might have failed. Does their failure cause endplay on that balancer shaft? That is the only thing that is making any sort of impact when I spin the flywheels. No markings or wear of any sort can be found anywhere. I just need to know if its the balancer parts are what I need to replace or if I need to shim the whole shaft on one end. Also, What is the piece on the left with the spring off of? I found where the 2 things on the right go but what are they as well?

Thanks guys

 

[Guest]

So are you saying there's free play left to right with the balancer shaft?

As for the spring and associated piece, that looks like part of the gear change indicator setup on the end of the shifting drum that sits behind the sprocket cover.

Parts 41 and 42 in this diagram if that's what they are:

 

[tjrriffic]

So are you saying there's free play left to right with the balancer shaft?

Yes sir. So do the internals control this endplay? or maybe there is only endplay from the bolt and washer on the right side not being tightened. If so, the I cant seem to find any reason why the motion of the flywheels is making the impacting sound aforementioned.

 

[Guest]

Yes sir. So do the internals control this endplay? or maybe there is only endplay from the bolt and washer on the right side not being tightened. If so, the I cant seem to find any reason why the motion of the flywheels is making the impacting sound aforementioned.

Hmmm... I understand what you're saying and I can't for the life of me remember if I had free play left/right on the balancer shaft, but I honestly don't think I did, or if there was it was so minimal as to be non-existant.

How much free play would you say there is? And can you check to make sure all these parts are present and accounted for?

 

[tjrriffic]

enough to clunk back and forth noticeably. Oh man. I'm looking at almost 2mm. And if thats the issue, then I just need a thicker washer on the outside which means I didnt have to split cases:lol:

 

[Guest]

Wow that's not good at all!

I'd be checking all those parts on the fiche if I was you, specifically 3 and the other bit that looks suspiciously like 3 but is a part of the counter balance assembly.