'82 450 Igniter - Repair, Replace, or Make?

[Guest]

Ok, I finally found Matchless' original thread about these HEI modules.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=133014&highlight=hei

In here, there's another forum member "brad-450Lz" who tried and failed with the HEI setup, but he does mention that the black/white third wire from the pickups goes to ground. This doesn't sound right to me, as I have 100% verified that there is no connection to ground, unless of course the ignitor itself grounds it.

So, looking at the GS1000G diagram, and then at the KZ550 diagram referenced in that thread, there's a significant difference due to the extra leads on the KZ.

So, I'm probably going to have some trial and error testing to do to get this working.

I'll initially endeavour to measure the voltage generated across the pickup coils, although I don't know if my cheap multimeter will be quick enough to show it accurately.

I'm trying to refresh some of me electrical knowledge here after 12 to 15 years away from it, but it's hard.

I can see how the bias works in the diagrams by holding one side of the pickup coils over 1.6 volts via the two diodes (0.8 volt forward voltage each) which (according to Lou's HEI module notes) results in extending the dwell time.

Beyond the above, my brain starts to hurt, so I will have to spend some time in the garage doing some practical testing.

I initially though biasing too much would probably be ok, but on reading through Lou's HEI notes, that will actually lead to stumbling at higher rev's, so I need to get it right.

I'll keep you all up to date with what I find.

Sorry for the rambling, but it helps to type out what I'm thinking.

 

[john82q]

So, is it right then for the GS450E that I should simply leave the black/white wire from the pickup coils disconnected so it continues to just be a common wire for the two pickup coils to mimic the GS1000G's setup?

Pete,
I suspect the the gs1000 pick up coils are grounded internally, and this is not shown on the diagrams.

Dont lose sight of that, all you want to acheive is that when the Green wire on the HEI gets a small pluse it grounds the igniton coil and thus generates the spark. you could simulate this with a small battaery.

I'll initially endeavour to measure the voltage generated across the pickup coils, although I don't know if my cheap multimeter will be quick enough to show it accurately.

This is where I would start.
It turns out I am just down road from you in Arana Hills, I have a small hand held oscilloscope you can borrow if you like. For sure it would show you the pulses as you kick it over.

Sent you a PM.


Cheers John

 

[Guest]

Pete,
I suspect the the gs1000 pick up coils are grounded internally, and this is not shown on the diagrams.

Dont lose sight of that, all you want to acheive is that when the Green wire on the HEI gets a small pluse it grounds the igniton coil and thus generates the spark. you could simulate this with a small battaery.

Cheers for the reply John.

That could be the case for sure, would be nice for a 1980 GS1000G owner to pipe up and clarify... hint hint to someone with one

And yeah, what you say there is right on the money. I tend to over think things and make them more complicated than they need to be, so trying to avoid that this time around but am still getting confused at the moment.

Probably the best thing I can do for myself right now is try not to think about it any more until all the bits get here so I can start testing.

This is where I would start.
It turns out I am just down road from you in Arana Hills, I have a small hand held oscilloscope you can borrow if you like. For sure it would show you the pulses as you kick it over.

Sent you a PM.


Cheers John

Also agreed on the start point, although as suspected my multimeter is too slow and insensitive to do much more than flicker when I pass a screwdriver in front of the pickup coil (tried it tonight).

However, having said that, the Clymer manual indicates you can test the ignitor by using a 1.5 volt battery to simulate the pickup coil action, so that gives me a reasonable idea of what I should expect from the pickup coils.

Very cool that we share a postcode, and thanks for the offer of the scope. I did at one point have a cathode ray oscilloscope years ago, but left it at my parent's place when I moved out of home and not sure what ended up happening to it. More than likely it wouldn't work by now though anyway.

I got your PM and for sure if I can't get any headway I'll give you a bell and see if you have any brighter ideas.

For now I'm just gonna wait (im)patiently for all my bits to arrive, and I think Tuesday will be the earliest they'll get here.

 

[Matchless]

Pete,
I would suggest rather trying to use the KZ550 method. You will see the red and blue wires are common, thus the single black/white wire can be used in the same way.

If you try the GS1000 method just leave the black/white disconnected.

A timing light and a dwell meter should show you what is happening when its running.

Good luck!

 

[Guest]

Pete,
I would suggest rather trying to use the KZ550 method. You will see the red and blue wires are common, thus the single black/white wire can be used in the same way.

If you try the GS1000 method just leave the black/white disconnected.

A timing light and a dwell meter should show you what is happening when its running.

Good luck!

Thanks for the tip Matchless.

I was thinking this morning (see I still can't stop thinking about it) that my first attempt should be the GS1000 type exactly as you suggested with the black/white disconnected.

I have some bread boards at home so I should be able to test it without soldering to start with.

I'll keep you all up to date, still waiting (im)patiently for everything to arrive... tomorrow at the earliest... ray:

 

[Guest]

Just a quick bump so people know I'm still doing this, just waiting on the parts still.

Apparently small registered parcel post is the absolute slowest method of postage Australia Post does, and has been known to take a couple of weeks.

Still waiting...

 

[Guest]

Finally!

Just in time for my cat's birthday meaning we've had a few sparkling red wines and I'm not in the best mind to be starting to test ignition components.

I suspect tomorrow night will be the same given it'll be Saturday night, so maybe I'll be able to try something on Sunday night.

 

[Matchless]

Pete,
You should have spark soon and also pave the way for other GS450's!
Good luck!

 

[Guest]

Indeed! There's gotta be an easier way than trying to find another 30 year old ignitor that will have an unknown life span.

I doubt I'll get quite this adventurous, but it's always possible to get some PCB etching stuff and make up a little PCB to put in a little weather proof case to hold the diodes and resistors so all you need to do is plug some modules onto the spade connectors that would be hanging out of the weather proof case.

 

[bluewool]

If you do choose to use "a little waterproof box". Be sure to make a hole inthe bottom for drainage. Water proof boxes tend to be more resistant to the escape of water than the entrance.

There always these if you feel like shelling out... Maybe someone has posted this before, if it's a duplicate, my apologies

http://www.boyerbransden.com/suzuki.html

 

[Guest]

If you do choose to use "a little waterproof box". Be sure to make a hole inthe bottom for drainage. Water proof boxes tend to be more resistant to the escape of water than the entrance.

There always these if you feel like shelling out... Maybe someone has posted this before, if it's a duplicate, my apologies

http://www.boyerbransden.com/suzuki.html

Good call there! It'll be mounted on a new electrics plate directly under the seat, so shouldn't get too wet, but a drainage hole is not a bad idea.

At this stage I suspect I'll stick with the diodes and resistors just insulated with heat shrink. I've made PCB's before back in college, but that was nearly 20 years ago and they had a proper etching tank etc. which made it a lot easier.

I believe there's a place here in Brissie that resells the Boyer Bransden modules, but they ain't cheap.

 

[bluewool]

Good call there! It'll be mounted on a new electrics plate directly under the seat, so shouldn't get too wet, but a drainage hole is not a bad idea.

At this stage I suspect I'll stick with the diodes and resistors just insulated with heat shrink. I've made PCB's before back in college, but that was nearly 20 years ago and they had a proper etching tank etc. which made it a lot easier.

I believe there's a place here in Brissie that resells the Boyer Bransden modules, but they ain't cheap.

Yeah, if you stand the electronics off the bottom a bit and add a drain in the low corner(as it's on the side stand) I usually tell apprentices to make the hole no bigger than 1/8"(you should need anything that big) so it doesn't get filled with bees! Nothing like being on a 30' extension ladder with a face full of bees!! exciting!

 

[Guest]

Well, I did get a distracted and rushed first test done today which was a complete failure, but I'm going to write it off as not even tested due to the rushing.

At this stage, I'm not sure if the failure was my dodgy connections or the fact that I only hooked one ignition module up.

The dodgy connections are that I just wound some wires around the connectors (don't want to crimp or solder anything until it's tested) and I only had time to wire up one module. It's quite possible that with only one module, and therefore one pickup coil connected, that it doesn't actually generate a signal properly.

Hopefully tomorrow I can get both hooked up a little better and start some real testing.

No pic's at the moment either due to the rush... I hate rushing.

 

[Guest]

Well I can see already that this is going to be far more painful than I thought, and it won't be fun, but if I succeed it will be rewarding.

If I don't succeed, it will probably be expensive... as in forking out for a Boyer Bransden or something.

Anyway, a pic of failure number 1:



That's the GS1000G type circuit hooked up there, and no go whatsoever. Left the black/white wire from the pickup coils not connected to anything and then I also tried connecting it to ground.

No spark either way.

I know those connections look dodgy, and I guess they are, but I did continuity checks on all of them to be sure they were connecting back to the harness correctly.

So, test number 2 was the KZ550 type circuit:



Still no go with that one. This has the black/white wire from the pickups connected in such a way as to give it some bias, or at least that's how it looks to me. Still no dice though.

I'm testing by passing a screwdriver across the pickup coil as if the crankshaft was spinning.

I did have a quick Google tonight to see if I could find some info on the modules I got so I could see if they really are compatible with the Wells units or not.

I found these:

http://www.mobiletron.com/a_eng_products_view.asp?FkindNo=F000002&SkindNo=S000001&Pd_Id=2153

http://www.mobiletron.com.tw/images/Product/P_SubFile1/f_596.pdf

It certainly looks like it should be suitable, so hopefully I can keep searching and find some way of verifying if the modules are indeed ok or if they're faulty. There were very cheap from eBay after all, so it would be good to know if they worked or not.

To be honest, tonight was just quick and dirty testing in the hope one of those circuits would work without any thought.

I'd keep going longer but it's MotoGP round 1 at 5am tomorrow morning, so wanna make sure I'm up in time for that.

Quick edit: Completely neglected to put the part number of the modules in here... it's IG-D1906E.

 

[Nessism]

Hey Pete,
You sure the screwdriver accurately simulates the rotor? I thought here was some sort of magnetic trigger but I could be wrong. You might want to try using the actual signal generator parts from the bike during your simulation.

 

[Matchless]

Pete,
As Ed says, maybe you are not generating a trigger pulse at the pickup.
You may want to test your modules first. The main stumbling block usually is the pulse from the pickup not triggering the HEI module. You also need to check that you have the 1.2 V bias present at the input as that lifts up the pulse a bit so that it can trigger the HEI as I understand it. You also need a bike battery for the coil not a lightweight power supply.

Try this simple method below with one module. It may also be possible to get a spark by pulsing the input with a penlight battery or two (1.5V or 3V) by flicking it briefly I have not done this, I must add, although it works on my OEM igniter.

Edit: I would suggest using better connectors and a substantial battery, as the current used to finally generate the spark is quite high and you need at least 5 or more Amps capability

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the replies guys!

You both raise a good point about the signal generator. There is definitely what looks to be different material embedded in one side of the governor which I took to be a different sort of metal, but more than likely you're both right that this is a magnet.

I've been trying to turn the motor as little as possible as it hasn't had the first start yet, but perhaps I should just bite the bullet and see how it goes.

Also, Andre, I've seen that diagram somewhere before, from a CX500 I think? But yes I also found this last night:

http://www.mobiletron.com/images/Product/P_SubFile3/f3_596.pdf

Which gave me an idea for testing, which is pretty much what that CX500 diagram shows.

I agree on the connection comments, they're still dodgy, but I'm using the car battery for the power source at least.

I'll definitely double check the pull up voltage too, and will see if a 1.5V battery can be used instead of cranking the engine around.

Hopefully I'll get some more testing done tonight.

Thanks a bunch guys!

 

[Matchless]

Pete,
Lou also has a method of driving the HEI module with points on his website. I think he used a simple transistor which should be easy to set up for a test it it comes to that. It should also indicate an idea for the input polarity.

Triggering the pickup with a screwdriver means that you actually simulate moving the fixed magnet under the winding and thus the magnetic field with the screwdriver.
You can try swiping a fixed magnet past the coil as well.
A while back I was trying to test a bike with a CDI and could actually see a small "kick" with the multitester over the pickup and set to the lowest AC scale. It is not enough to take a reading, but it registered on the LCD display.

Good luck

 

[Guest]

Thanks again Andre, I do remember seeing something about a points version on Lou's website but didn't look at the time.

You're right in that if I put my meter on the lowest setting (200 mV), when I flick my screwdriver past it I can see a flicker on the meter, but it's definitely no indication of a true measurement.

I'll get into it again tonight I hope and see if I can't test the modules and maybe get some success.

I need to be patient though... that's the hard bit for me!

 

[Guest]

Well, I believe I successfully tested one of the ignition modules tonight, but I don't know if I actually made progress or not.

So, I started off with a basic hookup like the CX500 one above (or below depending on your post display preference).

Turning the crank did absolutely nothing as I expected.

So, I disconnected the signal generator plug and instead put a 1.5v AA battery from W to G, and when I removed it, I got a nice big fat spark.

So, this tells me that I need to set the signal generator up so that it's a bit more than 1.5v normally and when I crank, it should drop that voltage and fire off a spark.

Does that make sense at all? I realise I'm over simplifying there, but hopefully the basic premise is correct.

I then went back and tried the KZ550 wiring setup again with just the one coil, and unintentionally left the ignition turned on while hooking it up.

I discovered that when I connected the ground to the diodes in that setup, it fired off a spark.

So, there's two scenarios where I can get a spark, but neither of those involves the actual signal generator.

Now, I have checked the resistance of the signal generator coils previously and they tested ok, so I'm not suspecting a faulty signal generator, I just think I haven't gotten the bias right for the trigger yet.

My missing link I think is knowing what the actual signal generator output looks like in terms of amplitude, but of course my meter is far too slow to capture this.

I'll head back to Lou's site and see if I'm missing something that will trigger one of those light bulb moments for me...