82 GS1100EZ Charging at 15.63 Volts

[Suzuki_Don]

Earl I just took my 550 for a 30 min ride. I have a permanent volt meter on the dash. It is charging between 14 and 14.6V while riding. When I turn off the motor it drops to 12.2V. I just went out and checked it again (30 min since motor was turned off) and it is down to 11.9V. I also checked it with an independent multimeter and it agrees with the reading of 11.9V. Even when it is on 12V it will not turn the starter motor over. The battery is only 3 months old but has not had much use as I have been working on the bike. When the starter is pressed all the lights dim out and stay dim. Any ideas please.

PS This is the second battery from this place in 6 months, the previous one bought in June lasted one month.

Regards

Don

 

[Matchless]

You will most probably find that one cell is shot. You can determine this if you can measure the SG of the acid in the cells. It should be above 1250 if fully charged. This could be due to a factory fault or just a poor make of battery, but could also be damaged by incorrect charging (over charging), especially when the battery was charged for the first time.
Either your battery is not being charged and is partially flat, then all the SG's in each cell will most probably read about 1150 or lower, but usually about the same or is full with one cell failing the battery is full the SG's will all be at 1250 or higher on all but much lower on the failing cell.
If the battery is failing under load the voltage will drop very low under high load, such as when the starter is engaged. This can also happen if you have a bad earth connection and can be picked up by cranking the motor and then feeling the heavy earth connecton on the battery and where it is terminated on the back of the engine for any heating.
Or you have just bought a another dud battery.

 

[Steve]

One of the most common causes of battery failure is the lack of proper initialization. :shock:

If a battery is not properly initialized before putting it into service, it may only reach 80% of its rated capacity, with no chance of improving on that. Rather than trying to detail how to properly put a batter into service, I did a quick Google search and found an excelent article that was aimed at the BMW crowd, but all the basics still apply. It mentions differences between wet cell (flooded) and sealed batteries and how to properly care for each of them.

With no further ado, here is the article.


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[Redman]

I think I 'm screwed!!

I've been playing with this all day off and on and the sense voltage is still 1 to 1.3 volts below the battery voltage while running.

Lee

Hey Muser Lee,

THe scence voltage being below the battery voltage is a problem. THat is what I was suspecting and wanting you to determine. Think of it this way: The R/R is trying to adjust its output in order control what it is measuring (light circuit voltage), right. SO the R/R is having to crank up its output and is raiseing the battery voltage to the 15.5 in order to get the light cuircuit up to the 14 volts that the R/R wants to see on its scence line. So for some reason the voltage at the light circuit doesnt represent the battery voltage, must be a bad connection along the way in between the two.

a few other commments:
- must not be a stock R/R as the stock R/R have the 3 wires from stator and one output wire (red) and a ground wire (b/w). Stock ones dont have a sence wire (least not on the Gs that I am familiar with).
- dont know why the scence wire can not be right to the same place as the output wire.

Need to review your recent comment about the charge dropping to 13v.

 

[Redman]

I think I 'm screwed!!

Then my brake bulb burned out. Then after I replaced it with a 1157 which is all I have today, the charging voltage dropped from 16 to just under 13 volts. That is too low.

Lee

Hum,
Since you have been overchargging, I wonder if the "just under 13 volts" is just the battery voltage, and now you are not charging at all. I dont see how changing the brake light bulb could have caused that. Humm...
how about that fuse you siad is in the R/R output to the batt+.

-- In general about troubleshooting charging problems: following the "stator paper" procedure is the best advise as it covers most all the various causes of possible problems that could occure. BUt in your case the other day I had a very specific suspecssion that I wanted you to investigate.

I would say that now we are now troubleshooting a differeent problem, and should start over and follow the "stator papers". Or if you want, jump a head and try the test were you measure the AC output of the stators 3 phases.

Nice story about riding with your sons. I have done that some with my son.

 

[earlfor]

My first suspicion is that you have one field in your stator that has quit working. The three AC fields of the stator produce about 25 amps max DC once rectified. All three fields are rectified to 12v. If the stator were to only produce one amp, it would still be one amp at 12v. If you have a stator field gone bad, you have lost 1/3 of your electrical capacity/output.
I would disconnect the stator from the R/R, and run the bike up to 5k rpm while checking the AC voltage on the stator legs. You should get 80v AC at 5K rpm between any two stator legs (yellow wires) If you number the three yellow stator legs 1,2,3, you want to check between 1,2 then 1,3 then 2,3.
If all are at or around 80V, then you know the problem is the R/R (assuming you have the R/R grounded to the battery terminal and the bike frame.

Earl

Earl I just took my 550 for a 30 min ride. I have a permanent volt meter on the dash. It is charging between 14 and 14.6V while riding. When I turn off the motor it drops to 12.2V. I just went out and checked it again (30 min since motor was turned off) and it is down to 11.9V. I also checked it with an independent multimeter and it agrees with the reading of 11.9V. Even when it is on 12V it will not turn the starter motor over. The battery is only 3 months old but has not had much use as I have been working on the bike. When the starter is pressed all the lights dim out and stay dim. Any ideas please.

PS This is the second battery from this place in 6 months, the previous one bought in June lasted one month.

Regards

Don

 

[Suzuki_Don]

Thanks Earl. How can I check the amount of amps that are being generated to the rectifier. How do I wire up my multimeter. So are you saying that I am getting the voltage required to charge my battery but not the amps, how many amps do I need. I have no accessories on the bike. Will the battery charge up if I use a battery charger as opposed to getting the alternator to do the job.

I have a Honda R/R on the bike and the sense wire (6th wire) runs through a relay so it cannot leak battery current to ground when the bike is not being used.

I will redo the 80V yellow wire test at my earliest convenience.

Thanks again

Cheers

Don

 

[Muser3]

Hi V

Hi V

Redman I am also saying HMM. I tested my stator and get 70V at 5k. I think that is barely acceptable, but I think acceptable nonetheless. I haven't yet checked the R/R but I bet it's good. We had a cold snap and it's about 29 here right now. That's real cold for us Texans (except for those who live up in Amarillo which is right up against the polar icecap)
I couldn't find the exact bulb replacement but I got a 12V 21/7. Now that the first bulb burned out and the charging picture changed, my panel indicator "brake lamp" is staying on. This really pi$$e$ me off because it took me a while to find the right wire to make the battery light go off. The bike had no battery when I got it and the po had put a black wire on the batt. level indicator circuit instead of a red wire. I naturally connected the black wires to the -batt. or to the frame. I'll get into the bucket today and recheck all the connections. What are your thoughts about using the dielectric grease on all the connections? I have used it for a long time but it may be a waste of time?

 

[Suzuki_Don]

My first suspicion is that you have one field in your stator that has quit working. The three AC fields of the stator produce about 25 amps max DC once rectified. All three fields are rectified to 12v. If the stator were to only produce one amp, it would still be one amp at 12v. If you have a stator field gone bad, you have lost 1/3 of your electrical capacity/output.
I would disconnect the stator from the R/R, and run the bike up to 5k rpm while checking the AC voltage on the stator legs. You should get 80v AC at 5K rpm between any two stator legs (yellow wires) If you number the three yellow stator legs 1,2,3, you want to check between 1,2 then 1,3 then 2,3.
If all are at or around 80V, then you know the problem is the R/R (assuming you have the R/R grounded to the battery terminal and the bike frame.

I have done the Stator Paper tests. The ohm readings between the stator wires are 0.7, 0.9 & 0.8. So seem to be OK. The voltage reading between the same legs at 5000rpm are in excess of 80VAC, between 80 and 100 (all readings identical). I did a Fluke clamp amp test on each stator output wire still connected to the rectifier with the motor running and got 7-8 AMPs at idle on each leg and 10 AMPs with the motor reved up.
How does all this sound. Are the amps sufficient. The reading was taken before the rectifier.
Cheers
Don

 

[Redman]

Redman I am also saying HMM. I tested my stator and get 70V at 5k.

it's about 29 here right now.

indicator "brake lamp" is staying on.

What are your thoughts about using the dielectric grease on all the connections?

Lee,

Yah, I say that starting over is a good idea, now are troubleshooting why not charging at all. After resovling that, then may get back the the over charging problem.
(yes, I am an old fart that says "problem" rather than "issue".)
I would say to go thru stator paper proceedure right from the start.

29 degrees ... so you are having your 3 days of winter early this year.

Brake lamp light will stay on as long as you dont have a brake light installed.

Dielectric grease a good idea for long term relaibility, but now you are trying to trouble shoot a failure or totally bad connection. After get all the other stuff sorted out to where it is working, then can be concerned about using the dielectric grease.

70vac on stator (I assume with stator dissconected) just tells us the the stator isnt completley fried, doesnt tell you everything. Did you do the ohm check phase to ground?

Tell us what else you are finding.
.

 

[earlfor]

The sense wire on a Honda R/R is supposed to be connected to a switched, hot/positive lead such as a tail light. If you normally turn the ignition/lights off when you park the bike, I dont see how they could come back on by themselves.

Earl

 

[earlfor]

It looks to me like your stator is spot on where it should be. The problem is either the R/R, faulty grounds, poor/corroded connections, or a wiring harness fault.

The charging system must work relative to battery voltage. If you have a Honda R/R with the sense wire connected to the tail light positive lead, the system cannot work properly if the voltage supply to the tail light is different than the voltage at the battery terminals. Knowing now that the stator is working properly, the next thing I would do is check sensor wire (tail light?) voltage and compare that to the battery. If it is different, the next step is to rewire the tailight (if need be) to get the voltage level consistant.

Earl

 

[Suzuki_Don]

It looks to me like your stator is spot on where it should be. The problem is either the R/R, faulty grounds, poor/corroded connections, or a wiring harness fault.

The charging system must work relative to battery voltage. If you have a Honda R/R with the sense wire connected to the tail light positive lead, the system cannot work properly if the voltage supply to the tail light is different than the voltage at the battery terminals. Knowing now that the stator is working properly, the next thing I would do is check sensor wire (tail light?) voltage and compare that to the battery. If it is different, the next step is to rewire the tailight (if need be) to get the voltage level consistant.

Earl

I have the sensor wire connected to the positive at the stop light switch, but run through a relay to prevent current loss when the bike is not being used. The difference in the battery voltage and the stop light wire is 0.6VDC. Is this near enough or do I need to rerun this wire back through the ignition switch to pick up more voltage from the battery.

Cheers
Don

 

[earlfor]

You have the sensor wire connected to the stop light? I must not be understanding correctly because the stop light circuit is only active when you are using the brakes. This would mean your sensor is not connected to anything unless you are braking and completing the circuit.

In any event, a 0.6v (6/10ths) difference is not acceptable. This would place you in the situation of having a fully charged battery showing 13v and a sensor reading of 12.4 which would tell your charging system the battery was less than half charged when it is already in an overcharging condition.

There is no reason (that I know of) to put a relay between the sensor wire and the R/R. Current will only flow in one direction through the R/R. It cant drain the battery unless its internally shorted and in that event, it would not be working anyhow. I would direct wire the sensor to an always on when the ignition switch is on pickup point. (making certain beforehand that the voltage is same as battery)

Earl

I have the sensor wire connected to the positive at the stop light switch, but run through a relay to prevent current loss when the bike is not being used. The difference in the battery voltage and the stop light wire is 0.6VDC. Is this near enough or do I need to rerun this wire back through the ignition switch to pick up more voltage from the battery.

Cheers
Don

 

[Guest]

If he wired it like I did it goes into the switch prior to the switch. I agree with the loss of volts. Must be a bad connection somewhere or a bad wire.

 

[Suzuki_Don]

You have the sensor wire connected to the stop light? I must not be understanding correctly because the stop light circuit is only active when you are using the brakes. This would mean your sensor is not connected to anything unless you are braking and completing the circuit.

In any event, a 0.6v (6/10ths) difference is not acceptable. This would place you in the situation of having a fully charged battery showing 13v and a sensor reading of 12.4 which would tell your charging system the battery was less than half charged when it is already in an overcharging condition.

There is no reason (that I know of) to put a relay between the sensor wire and the R/R. Current will only flow in one direction through the R/R. It cant drain the battery unless its internally shorted and in that event, it would not be working anyhow. I would direct wire the sensor to an always on when the ignition switch is on pickup point. (making certain beforehand that the voltage is same as battery)

Earl

Earl I have the sensor wire going to the positive connection on the ignition side of the brake light switch. It has power to it whenever the ignition is on.

Don

 

[Matchless]

The sense voltage point using the Honda Regulator is important and should really be the actual voltage at the battery, but the honda R/R has been found to the leaky and does drain a small amount of juice from the battery if the bike stands for a long time.
The solution then was to connect the sense lead to the orange wire at the rear brake switch as this one is only live when the ignition is on, but feeds via the ignition switch. Any thin wire running from the battery through the ignition switch and back to the battery area will have some sort of voltage drop due to the distance, but higher if there is any bad connection anywhere. Some people added a relay that only operates once the bike is switched on and the coil of the relay is wired to negative earth and to positive orange at the brake line. They then wire the sensing wire to one side of a "normally open" contact of the relay and the other side directly to the battery positive pole to give the shortest possible wire with the least voltage drop across it for the sense lead. This is what yours seems like or should be.

Another and seldomly noticed issue is the manufacturing tolerances, for example the zener diode in the regulator has a manufacturing tolerance percentage and if it is supposed to work at 10 volt and has a tolerance of 1% then it could have an actual operating voltage of anything between 10.1V and 0.9V if the tolerance is 5% then it could be between 9.5V to 10.5V. Exact value components are carefully selected and is plausible that a regulator could slip through that does not sense at exactly the theoretical voltage due to the component values being at the wrong extreme of the allowable tolerance. So it is possible that you have a regulator that charges a bit higher than others where another may charge at a more correct voltage.

Hope this helps.

 

[Suzuki_Don]

Thanks guys for all your replies. I have traced the voltage drop back to the ignition switch. Going across the red (voltage in) and orange (voltage out) looking into the ignition switch at the connector in the headlight bucket I am seeing 1.5 ohms. I reckon it should be zero. Would this resistance be enough to cause a voltage drop of 0.6VDC. When I test the same two wires going back into the wiring harness towards the brake light switch the reading that I get is only 0.1VDC less that the voltage that I read at the battery.

Your thoughts please. A special thanks to Earl and Mark for their help. BUT I DONT WANT TO CHANGE MY IGNITION SWITCH. I want the one key to fit everything on the bike.

Cheers
Don

 

[hp1000s]

Kinda' sounds like matchless has given you a way to fix your sensor-wire voltage-drop problem, by using a correctly-wired relay, sensing actual battery voltage at the red/+ battery terminal. I'm getting to the electrical portion of my project now, so I'm trying to soak-up all the 12V knowledge I can!

 

[Suzuki_Don]

Kinda' sounds like matchless has given you a way to fix your sensor-wire voltage-drop problem, by using a correctly-wired relay, sensing actual battery voltage at the red/+ battery terminal. I'm getting to the electrical portion of my project now, so I'm trying to soak-up all the 12V knowledge I can!

I already have the relay in place. I thought I explined that earlier. The problem is the red and orange wires in the actual ignition switch. There is a high resistance there causing the voltage drop. It looks like I need to replace it with something else.

Cheers
Don