'83 1100E engine knock on cold starts

[browe58]

engine knocks from starter clutch area on cold starts but runs silky smooth once started and NEVER does it on warm starts. on cold starts i can take the choke off after 1 minute of idle and the throttle isfully responsive & bikeis ready to roll as if it was fully warm which tells me it is tuned properly. bike screams in all gears and at any speed / rpm all day long and never skips a beat. i've read all the posts on this but still need advice from the experts. the consensus is starter clutch, timing too advanced , or too much compression. bike has 65k miles but motor was rebulit at 60k by po. i pulled left side starter clutch cover and all looked good & tight so i didn't bother to pull the clutch. even if i wanted to i don't have the proper puller. so i'm thinking timing is too advanced or there's too much compression. what's the fix for too much compression or is that normal on a rebulid? should i just leave it alone and over time it will correct itself or am i playing russian roullette here? what's the likelihood that timing is too advanced given that it runs flawlessly? if in fact it's too advanced is it a matter of removing right side cover and moving the plate just a tad in one direction (and what direction would that be to raatrd it???) and then try a cold start and see if it knocks. or do i have to go through the entire timing procedure? i read the procedure it and it seems like a lot of work for something that may not be the cause of the knock. do you guys have a quick and easy way to retard the timing a bit? thanks so much for your help guys!!!

 

[tom203]

Sounds like it's running fine (lucky you after PO rebuild !), so I don't see a timing problem. I doubt you can really inspect starter clutch without pulling rotor/flywheel. Maybe on cold starts, all the oil has dripped out of starter clutch,so you hear noises from it- when warm, the residual oil masks the sound. I think that I'd prefer knowing its actual condition- who knows, it might be the original!

 

[browe58]

Sounds like it's running fine (lucky you after PO rebuild !), so I don't see a timing problem. I doubt you can really inspect starter clutch without pulling rotor/flywheel. Maybe on cold starts, all the oil has dripped out of starter clutch,so you hear noises from it- when warm, the residual oil masks the sound. I think that I'd prefer knowing its actual condition- who knows, it might be the original!

thanks but to to clarify.... the knocking noise on COLD starts happens as it's cranking over (sometimes i get lucky & it's start w/ just a blip so no knocking is heard. worse case, it cranks 3-4 times before starting and that's when i hear the knocking) & goes away IMMEDIATELY after it starts so i don't think it's a lubrication issue. or is it????

 

[hampshirehog]

Sounds like the starter clutch and weak springs behind the rollers. When the oil is warm it (obviously) gets thinner and the springs don't have so much pushing to do (for want of a better description).

The noise is more of a 'clack-clack' usually.

 

[Guest]

Knocking as in the starter clutch is slipping? The puller for the starter clutch is available easily. Check search button at top to see other ideas...

 

[rapidray]

The engine is trying to fire & kicking back against the starter clutch when the engine is cranking over. It might have too much timing in it. You can retard the timing by rotating the ignition plate CLOCKWISE, or to the right, as you are looking at it from the right side of the bike. This is what I would guess you are experiencing. That is what I have seen the most with your symptoms. And I have built LOTS of these motors. Ray.

 

[browe58]

The engine is trying to fire & kicking back against the starter clutch when the engine is cranking over. It might have too much timing in it. You can retard the timing by rotating the ignition plate CLOCKWISE, or to the right, as you are looking at it from the right side of the bike. This is what I would guess you are experiencing. That is what I have seen the most with your symptoms. And I have built LOTS of these motors. Ray.

that's seems like easiest solution at the moment. since it's running so good i would guess i need to move it maybe 1/8" max? how much would you suggest at a time? does it need it be at tdc? can i start the bike w/ the cover off? thanks so much for your help. peace.

 

[browe58]

Yes, you can start bike with the Ignition cover off. If you don't have a timing light make a scratch between the plate and the backing so you know where you started from and can get back there if need be.

actually i do have a timing light (the type you attach to spark plug #1 lead and point the gun in timing hole) but have never used it on a bike. can you give me the quick & dirty procedure in lieu of scratching a mark? thanks .

UPDATE:
i've search the forum and basscliff's site i can NOT find the procedure for timing my '83 1100e. i did read that the timing never needs to be addressed (i.e., maintenance free) as it's controlled by the igniter. so is the timing adjustable on my bike??? thanks.

 

[browe58]

i got the timing sorted out and now the knocking is GONE. good thing i didn't waste my timie & money pulling the starter clutch!!! thanks guys.

 

[rapidray]

Glad to help, Ray.

 

[blowerbike]

i got the timing sorted out and now the knocking is GONE. good thing i didn't waste my timie & money pulling the starter clutch!!! thanks guys.

the starter clutch will have issues sooner or later....its all a part of owning a GS series bike... especially the large CC models.

FYI
pull the advancer out and inspect and lubricate it.
if it is sticky...it can stay at full advance and cause starting issues.
it should be real snappy when you check it.
the small adjustment you have with a stock timing plate really shouldn't cause any issues when starting not matter full clockwise or full counter clockwise....you may still have a loose or worn starter clutch.
good luck.

 

[browe58]

the starter clutch will have issues sooner or later....its all a part of owning a GS series bike... especially the large CC models.

FYI
pull the advancer out and inspect and lubricate it.
if it is sticky...it can stay at full advance and cause starting issues.
it should be real snappy when you check it.
the small adjustment you have with a stock timing plate really shouldn't cause any issues when starting not matter full clockwise or full counter clockwise....you may still have a loose or worn starter clutch.
good luck.

i appreciate the suggestion but trouble starting was never the issue. started fine but knocked while cranking over. the knocking on cold starts was very annoying & consistent. once i got the timing spot on with the aid of a timing light, the knocking stopped. i can't explain it but the person who suggested to check the timing is a GENIUS. again, i'm glad i didn't waste valuable time & money messing w/ removing the starter clutch. when i removed the cover everything looked good & tight. motor was rebulit 5k miles ago and it's possible that starter clutch is new. thanks.

 

[blowerbike]

i appreciate the suggestion but trouble starting was never the issue. started fine but knocked while cranking over. the knocking on cold starts was very annoying & consistent. once i got the timing spot on with the aid of a timing light, the knocking stopped. i can't explain it but the person who suggested to check the timing is a GENIUS. again, i'm glad i didn't waste valuable time & money messing w/ removing the starter clutch. when i removed the cover everything looked good & tight. motor was rebulit 5k miles ago and it's possible that starter clutch is new. thanks.

i taught ray everything he knows...
good luck:lol:

 

[TheCafeKid]

i appreciate the suggestion but trouble starting was never the issue. started fine but knocked while cranking over. the knocking on cold starts was very annoying & consistent. once i got the timing spot on with the aid of a timing light, the knocking stopped. i can't explain it but the person who suggested to check the timing is a GENIUS. again, i'm glad i didn't waste valuable time & money messing w/ removing the starter clutch. when i removed the cover everything looked good & tight. motor was rebulit 5k miles ago and it's possible that starter clutch is new. thanks.

I'm glad it's no longer doing it, but both of these guys know what they're talking about. It's your starter clutch. At the timing you did have it set at, it was igniting soon enough that it was kicking back against the clutch. You retarded the spark a little, so it gets more of a spin before firing, for the time being preventing the dreaded "CLACK" noise. But eventually it will start doing it again.

The bigger problem here is that if you don't correct the actual issue, it will eventually spit the springs out the back of the housing plate, and into your engine. Also, it can/will snap the bolts that hold the clutch to the charging rotor clean in two. All that crap will be floating around in your oil...

And what's more, your bike won't kick over anymore once the clutch goes.
Considering the cost of a new assbly, I highly doubt the starter clutch was replaced even when the motor was rebuilt.

 

[rapidray]

Trust me, the kick back was the timing! NOT the starter clutch. If you had left the timing that way it was, it would BECOME an issue with the starter clutch. You probably won't have any more trouble with it for 40,000 miles unless the nut holding it on comes loose or the 3 bolts in back come loose. Ray.

 

[browe58]

I'm glad it's no longer doing it, but both of these guys know what they're talking about. It's your starter clutch. At the timing you did have it set at, it was igniting soon enough that it was kicking back against the clutch. You retarded the spark a little, so it gets more of a spin before firing, for the time being preventing the dreaded "CLACK" noise. But eventually it will start doing it again.

The bigger problem here is that if you don't correct the actual issue, it will eventually spit the springs out the back of the housing plate, and into your engine. Also, it can/will snap the bolts that hold the clutch to the charging rotor clean in two. All that crap will be floating around in your oil...

And what's more, your bike won't kick over anymore once the clutch goes.
Considering the cost of a new assbly, I highly doubt the starter clutch was replaced even when the motor was rebuilt.

the motor was rebulit at 60k miles and now has 66.7k miles. what's the likelihood that the starter clutch is original? i know that the starter is new because someone wrote "NEW" on it w/ a marker and i suspect it was done when motor was rebuilt. po was a fanatic and had a collection of bikes but the gs1100e was his favorite. he lost his vision and gave the bike to his son who i purchased the bike from. the son could not locate the paperwork for the rebuild but he assured me that his dad spared no expense and had everything replaced while the motor was out. this is not your average 1100e. when i removed the side cover for the starter clutch everything was tight and clean and showed no sign of wear. if i was a betting man i'd say it was new. that said, i have no plans of removing the starter clutch unless the knocking reappears. thanks.