850gs how to set timing

[dennismopar73]

sorry guys new here, bare with me
i am normaly a car guy, i just bought this 850 1982 owner says he rebuilt the motor , he said it ran just wouldnt idle, i cannot get it to hardley run
ran compression test . cold, best i had was # 1 at 100 . # 2 65 #3 95,#4 was 105
i had the carbs cleaned and sonic cleaned as well with new kits instahled,
the issue i have is cam /crank timiing,
i see the marks on the crank washer t /a but nowhere does it line up with anything the rear elec says 1/4 front mark 3/2 but see nowhere is there a mark to line up that crank mark,
if i put the crank marks where i think (lined up with the elc tap) the cams appear to be way out (180) or so,
my book only shows the point type crank good for the cams and their marks but no help with the electronic one,
can or does someone have a good pics that i could see to see where i need to be looking at please,
this is a realy nice bike for its age, but not worth me sending to a shop at 70 hr, if and i know i can fix myself if some one can help me just a little
i think it out of time and tappets to tight, please help
thanks dennis

 

[blowerbike]

you should be concerned that the person who rebuilt the engine doesn't know how to time the cams.

won't run 180 out and you'd have a bunch of bent valves.

the welcome wagon will be along with some helpful links soon.
good luck.

 

[Nessism]

You can download a factory service manual for your bike for free here...http://members.dslextreme.com/users/bikecliff/

It's fairly easy to set the cams 180 degrees out, and easy to fix too. Biggest pain is removing the cam chain tensioner (carbs should be removed first).

 

[Big T]

You'll have to fix whatever the PO did wrong - there's lots of idiots out there

The 1-4 F is the fire (ignition timing) mark. There should be a T (for TDC) mark also

2-3 has the same thing

The PO probably left out the little plate that those marks line up to

Take out the #4 plug, put a straw in the hole and rotate the crank (clockwise) to find TDC on the ignition stroke (that's when the 1-4 T mark will be visible)

Check your newly downloaded factory manual for the proper alignment of the arrows on the cam gears (take the cam cover off 1st)

100 compression cold is okay -I'm assuming the valves are not properly adjusted as well

It's hard to know just how bad a job the PO did when he "rebuilt" the motor. Often, they have minor fixable issues and decide the motor is the problem,without any analysis, so they tear it apart and probably don't know what they're doing.

Good luck and keep posting up on your progress

 

[dennismopar73]

thanks everyone for the replys
the book says 125-180 hot , i was thinking my best was #4 at 105,
#1 @100 the #2 bothers me badly it doesnt hit @65 #3 at @95
even being cold wouldnt think they should be this low,?
as for something missing on the crank/ electric plate, that the po missed , maybe right dono/ thats why i'm posting ,
i tried to download the previous poster here link , my adobie wont let me do it so i cant see the pics
i have the cam cover off, the carbs are off as well as the electronic cover,
i can see the marks and the #s and i can count from 1 - 20 link on the cams i am understanding the cams marks, but even if i put them where they should then the crank is sitting at a point that not making sence,
for you guys that do this its an easy fix here i havent worked on ab ike in 30 years, and wasnt dual cam sure this has a easy fix to it,
and i think once i see the marks where the crank supose to be at it may not be out of time , may just have the tappets to tight
i do have another motor that has alot less miles i can put on this bike ,
but i would like to fix this rather than give up and take a short cut
any help would be greatly appreciated dennis
@ big t i did the #4 brought it up top ,, then the cams where ( ??) like way off
can anyone post a pic of marks and what i need to see?

 

[Nessism]

To set cam timing do the following...

1) Set the crank to the 1-4 T mark

2) Check the position of the 1- mark on the exhaust cam. It needs to be pointing at the gasket surface. If necessary, remove the cam chain from the sprocket and reposition the cam. Do not allow the crank to move - double check that it's still at 1-4 T. Get a large pair of vice grips and press the cam into the engine, compressing the valve springs. Do not use the bolts on the cam caps to press the cam down into the springs.

3) Count the link pins between the 2 and 3 marks on the cams and adjust the intake came as necessary.

The key here is to set the crank and then don't move it at all. Don't allow it to move. Keep checking to make sure it didn't move. Get the clue?

 

[Nessism]

 

[Big T]

Dennis

Remember - 4 cycle motor, so the cams CAN be 180 out, give it another rotation (I assuming you did this) to see if something lines up

Can you be more specific about where the cam arrows and T1-4 marks are when you have it at TDC?

I'm just guessing, because you ask good questions, that the cams are out of time

Do the cams ever line up as shown above?

As for Abobe, upgrade to Reader 10 (free) and you should be good. Download it onto your computer. Make a file for this bike, cause there's more stuff on Cliff's site that you'll want to save

 

[Nessism]

This one is specific to the 850.

 

[BassCliff]

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[dennismopar73]

Ok getting started on this again,
thanks for the pics,
still have no marks to go by on the crank ,, if i bring up #4 to tdc, the front cam , shows #1 almost even with the head,but the cam end marks not in line with the head, i can count 7 links to the #2,, then count back to the #3 at 20 links, but the # 3 is not straight up , The cams are not aligned, it appears to me that both cams need to be realigned,about 2 links , ??
reason i say this, ,, the other 850 motor i have on the bench ,when i check it and put it in the same position, the cams appear to be at a diffrent stage, also this motor has marks to align it!!
and it suppose to be the same year motor, but it has a different electronic plate , and advance springs behind the plate, mmm the one on the bike doesnt have these?? i did pick up haynes manuel, not alot of help , but does show alittle

 

[Nessism]

I suggest that you remove the ignition plate and rotor on your '82 and install the earlier parts from that other engine. That will allow you to determine exactly where 1-4 T (TDC) is located. After that you should be able to check/adjust the cam timing properly.

 

[dennismopar73]

i should be able to duplicate the marks on both motors,,
the spare motor i do believe is correct, i should be able to put the cams and crank at the same point and see these cams sitting at the same mark,
, i cant so i know the one on the bike is wrong, but do i need to start over and completly redo the timming, this seams to be the logical choice,
im having hard time trying to figure why 2 of the same motors have different setups??
walk to one motor look , try to put the other one there , wow doesnt look like that, 'now what' ?
sorry to be a bother, hate to tear 2 motors apart just to fix 1

 

[Nessism]

Removing the timing plate and advance rotor is easy and doesn't constitute "tearing apart" the engine. If you have a better way to positively identify 1-4 TDC than use that instead. To me, I'd just do a temporary parts move since it should take all of 5 min. to do and put the issue to rest.

 

[Big T]

I'm guessing the 82 motor is stock Suzuki electronic ignition and the spare has a Dyna S

Any pictures?

 

[Suzuki_Don]

Just to throw another spanner into the works -- check that the sprockets have not been removed from the cams and put back 180 degrees out of whack.

See Nessism's first picture of timing setup. The two notches in the camshafts should be facing each other when #1 arrow is horizontal with the head/cylinder joint.

 

[dennismopar73]

o guys ,, did the transplant of ig parts, it showed the exh cam out 1 tooth , set it redone the tmming 3 times ,(just to make sure i was right on,) and i was, but still didnt help the issues,
still running 65 psi in @ 2 cyl and rest running the same\
so i will say the engne needs more work,
by the way this bike has sit for 3 years in a garage dry,
have got it to run but very badly #1 & #2 miss and backfires sometimes severly so i would say this motor needs help,
it maybe more than what i intend to spend, the spare motor is an unknown peice out of a wreck ?
but i will look into this alittle more may see what they charge to valve job the head ? check for bent valves??
thanks everyone its really appreciated

 

[dennismopar73]

i dono about the type of ig they are theyre just totaly diffrent!
the one on the bike has a recessed ig plate with a washer on the crank bolt, and a
extended flat spot then marks for f a line then the letter t
on the spare motor, it has exposed ig plate no washer on the crank nut only a flate extended and has another plate behind it with springs and the alignment f - t
i will get some pic in here tommorrow and show what i have going on
thanks everyone

 

[Big T]

As far as the compression goes, have you adjusted the valves?

Since the motor sat for 3 yrs, you can probably run it and see if the compression comes up on #2 - might be some stuck rings

 

[dennismopar73]

hi guys , update on my issues..
after rechecking timming,i tryied to see what the valve lash was,
sounds stupid couldnt find a feeler gauge that goes down to the .003- .008 range , so i lossened the cam caps just to see if the compression would go up?
well id diff did , by a lot!! my worse cyl went from 60 to 120#
my best was 105 went to 120+ overall the diff between my lowest and my best was 5 #
i know this is not the way to go at this , but it show me what is wrong
so now i have to fig how to come up with the correct shims ?
and get the correct feeler gauge !!