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Advice on downhill curves?

  • Thread starter Thread starter pmong
  • Start date Start date
P

pmong

Guest
Hi,

Recently, I have been going out early Sunday for a ride, ideally before 7 am when others are still in bed, mainly to avoid traffic here in Los Angeles. I include the Santa Monica Mountains for some practice on curves but nothing like the roads around Rock Store. Still getting the miles in to improve my skills, after having returned to riding over a year ago after decades of not being on a bike. The rides are usually nice, and gives me a chance to practice various techniques.

Was on a new road for me, and encountered a few sharp downhill curves whose tightness I did not fully anticipated. On one right curve, was probably going too fast, but felt very iffy while countersteering and giving some throttle. Gravity was already pulling, rear wheel felt light, and there was a car to my left. I did make it through, leaning perhaps the most I have since returning to riding, although in my youth, I regularly scraped the pegs. At the bottom, I knew that I needed more skills to better anticipate and to make it through when things become more challenging than expected.

So, what advice you you have on downhill curves, which already transfer weight to the front wheel? Things I should practice and consider?
 
Keep the weight off your upper body. Squeeze the tank with your thighs, and use your core to hold you up. Keep your arms loose (really this should be practiced for every turn). Get used to moving around on the bike. Get your weight over, your centerline inside of the center of the bike, toward the inside of the turn. Weight the outside peg with your foot, push the tank with your inside knee, (this helps stabilize the bike in the corner and improves tracking accuracy) keep your inside elbow either pointed at the ground or parallel with the ground and steer with your inside hand only (you'd be amazed at how much your hands subconsciously fight each other)
Stay loose up top, get your head over in the corner and down, (chin about in line with your mirror perch) and lead with the chin, look for the exit of the corner or as far as you can see through it.

At least that works for me ;)
 
the best way to approach an unknown curve (according to me and an advanced riding instructor) is to brake before the curve, enter the curve, and then roll on power gently until you exit the curve. the downhill aspect makes it even more important to brake to a safe entry speed because you will naturally pick up speed much quicker. and, of course... practice! practice! practice! one thing you might want to check is tire pressures. if you are over inflated for one-up riding, your tire will be rounder and have a smaller contact patch, giving you less traction. double check your tire pressures and your manual and make sure you have a good, accurate tire gauge, or two.
 
TheCafeKid said:
Keep the weight off your upper body. Squeeze the tank with your thighs, and use your core to hold you up. Keep your arms loose (really this should be practiced for every turn). Get used to moving around on the bike. Get your weight over, your centerline inside of the center of the bike, toward the inside of the turn. Weight the outside peg with your foot, push the tank with your inside knee, (this helps stabilize the bike in the corner and improves tracking accuracy) keep your inside elbow either pointed at the ground or parallel with the ground and steer with your inside hand only (you'd be amazed at how much your hands subconsciously fight each other)
Stay loose up top, get your head over in the corner and down, (chin about in line with your mirror perch) and lead with the chin, look for the exit of the corner or as far as you can see through it.

At least that works for me ;)
Click to expand...
that too.

at higher speeds, you will actually be pushing on the inside handlebar to turn the bike (it's all about the gyroscopic effect). so, if you're turning right, push on the right hand grip.

and look at the exit of your corner, not the car in the other lane. target fixation can cause you to actually head right for the car you're trying to avoid. your body does this subconsciously, so you have to fight it and mentally tell yourself to look where you're going.

cafekid described it pretty much perfectly.
 
airbornespud said:
the best way to approach an unknown curve (according to me and an advanced riding instructor) is to brake BEFORE the curve, enter the curve, and then roll on power gently until you exit the curve.
The downhill aspect makes it even more important to brake to a safe entry speed because you will naturally pick up speed much quicker. and, of course... practice! practice! practice! one thing you might want to check is tire pressures.
If you are over inflated for one-up riding, your tire will be rounder and have a smaller contact patch, giving you less traction. Double check your tire pressures and your manual and make sure you have a good, accurate tire gauge, or two.
Click to expand...


^^^ This.

Eric
 
What TCK says about looking past the corner is so true, sounds silly, but the bike goes where you look, don't look directly in front of yourself, look to where you are aiming to go, from one aiming point to the next.
Check this video out, and you will understand, check out the head action, always looking to the next aiming point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqRvqw4YXtY&feature=related
 
Flyboy said:
What TCK says about looking past the corner is so true, sounds silly, but the bike goes where you look, don't look directly in front of yourself, look to where you are aiming to go, from one aiming point to the next.
Check this video out, and you will understand, check out the head action, always looking to the next aiming point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqRvqw4YXtY&feature=related
Click to expand...
the riding instructor i spoke of earlier rode using this exact technique on a fully dressed brand new Goldwing 1800. SHE also drug her floorboards on almost every turn, and she had the best time through the course, beating several riders on much faster bikes. it is a little counter-intuitive, but once you learn it, you will understand why it is the proper riding technique.
 
I will add, and not in a "know it all" sort of way, as I am by far no expert or I'd be out on a track instead of running a restaurant; the biggest mistake I see people make in my opinion is NOT TURNING THEIR HEAD. Many preach and try to practice "look where you want to go" but only use their eyes. Fact is, your field of "process-able" vision is actually very small. Experts say it is approximately the size of a US quarter held out at arms length. Yes, you need to use your periferal(sp) vision, but to truly "see" where you wan to go, you need to MOVE YOUR HEAD. :)
 
An advanced cornering technique, used in racing, is to drag your Rear Brake, more than your Front Brake, entering the turn. The bike will fall over into the turn.
Using your Front Brake a lot will make the bike "Stand Up", steering you Out,:eek: not In.
Its the Bike Dynamics and Geometry.
Many Racing Bikes will duplicate the Rear Brake with a lever on the handle bars,:-s since hard leans means your on your toes on the Foot Pegs (can't reach Rear Brake Foot Lever).
This is an advanced technique and should be perfected on a track.:o
Practice this Technique gently on the street.:)
 
All I can add is to advise staying in a lower gear for the compression braking benefit. Trail braking can be useful, but it is best left for riders with some experience as too much force can overcome the front tire traction which will most likely result in a low side.
 
Almost everyone underestimates the effect that a slope has on braking distances. Compared to braking on flat ground, you can brake what feels like a lot and not really be much slower than you were before. Braking before the curve needs to be done sooner, and harder than you might realize. Braking while in the curve does much less than you are used to as well. It is very easy to overcook a downhill curve. Another factor is that you will be a little bit off in your steering, since the angles and dangles all look a little different than you are used to. And, you can't use as much power in the curve as you are used to, the bike is accelerating so much faster down the hill anyway. Some steep long curves you can't use power at all without going too fast for the last part of the curve.

The moral of the story?
Very simple really.
Haul ass up hill, go slow downhill.
 
TheCafeKid said:
Keep the weight off your upper body. Squeeze the tank with your thighs, and use your core to hold you up. Keep your arms loose (really this should be practiced for every turn). Get used to moving around on the bike. Get your weight over, your centerline inside of the center of the bike, toward the inside of the turn. Weight the outside peg with your foot, push the tank with your inside knee, (this helps stabilize the bike in the corner and improves tracking accuracy) keep your inside elbow either pointed at the ground or parallel with the ground and steer with your inside hand only (you'd be amazed at how much your hands subconsciously fight each other)
Stay loose up top, get your head over in the corner and down, (chin about in line with your mirror perch) and lead with the chin, look for the exit of the corner or as far as you can see through it.

At least that works for me ;)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice. I have not tried moving on the bike because I usually do not push the bike that hard around a curve. My main strategy is to slow enough that I can get through comfortably. This is something I should practice but not aggressively to see if it is technique I can use. I have seen a couple of video (youtube) on this, and it seems very challenging. There is a lot of coordinated motion needed, and I guess practice, practice would make it more natural and instinctive.

I am not sure what you mean "keep weight off upper body." Explanation?
 
airbornespud said:
the best way to approach an unknown curve (according to me and an advanced riding instructor) is to brake before the curve, enter the curve, and then roll on power gently until you exit the curve. the downhill aspect makes it even more important to brake to a safe entry speed because you will naturally pick up speed much quicker. and, of course... practice! practice! practice! one thing you might want to check is tire pressures. if you are over inflated for one-up riding, your tire will be rounder and have a smaller contact patch, giving you less traction. double check your tire pressures and your manual and make sure you have a good, accurate tire gauge, or two.
Click to expand...

Yes, fully understood. My problem was that I underestimate how much I had to reduce my speed, even after accounting for going downhill. Will try to be more conservative in the future, but seeking advice on how to make it through when I error.

Good point about the tires. I check regularly with a gauge, although not every time I go out, except a visual inspection. I might go to the lower side of the range next time, but that also means checking the pressure more frequently to ensure the tires are not too low.
 
Flyboy said:
What TCK says about looking past the corner is so true, sounds silly, but the bike goes where you look, don't look directly in front of yourself, look to where you are aiming to go, from one aiming point to the next.
Check this video out, and you will understand, check out the head action, always looking to the next aiming point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqRvqw4YXtY&feature=related
Click to expand...

airbornespud said:
the riding instructor i spoke of earlier rode using this exact technique on a fully dressed brand new Goldwing 1800. SHE also drug her floorboards on almost every turn, and she had the best time through the course, beating several riders on much faster bikes. it is a little counter-intuitive, but once you learn it, you will understand why it is the proper riding technique.
Click to expand...

Yes, thanks for the reminder. I am getting fairly good about looking past the corner, although once in a while, I find myself glimpsing at the road in front of the bike. A nervous habit I have to break through practice so looking past the corner becomes instinctive.

Love the video. Amazing low-speed skill, well beyond my capacity. I certainly need practice in this area also.
 
Last edited:
TheCafeKid said:
I will add, and not in a "know it all" sort of way, as I am by far no expert or I'd be out on a track instead of running a restaurant; the biggest mistake I see people make in my opinion is NOT TURNING THEIR HEAD. Many preach and try to practice "look where you want to go" but only use their eyes. Fact is, your field of "process-able" vision is actually very small. Experts say it is approximately the size of a US quarter held out at arms length. Yes, you need to use your periferal(sp) vision, but to truly "see" where you wan to go, you need to MOVE YOUR HEAD. :)
Click to expand...

Thanks again for the valuable information. Our MSF instructor also make a major point about turning one's head. I can't say I always do that, so another item to practice, practice.
 
Wizard said:
An advanced cornering technique, used in racing, is to drag your Rear Brake, more than your Front Brake, entering the turn. The bike will fall over into the turn.
Using your Front Brake a lot will make the bike "Stand Up", steering you Out,:eek: not In.
Its the Bike Dynamics and Geometry.
Many Racing Bikes will duplicate the Rear Brake with a lever on the handle bars,:-s since hard leans means your on your toes on the Foot Pegs (can't reach Rear Brake Foot Lever).
This is an advanced technique and should be perfected on a track.:o
Practice this Technique gently on the street.:)
Click to expand...

1980GS1000E said:
All I can add is to advise staying in a lower gear for the compression braking benefit. Trail braking can be useful, but it is best left for riders with some experience as too much force can overcome the front tire traction which will most likely result in a low side.
Click to expand...

Yes, an interesting technique that is well beyond my limited skills at this time. Still working on the slowing before entering from the outside, countersteer and lean, slowly roll on the throttle, hitting the delayed apex, accelerating out. I am getting better, although still need more practice.

At some point, I want to take a more advance riding class to pick up better techniques.

Thanks.
 
tkent02 said:
Almost everyone underestimates the effect that a slope has on braking distances. Compared to braking on flat ground, you can brake what feels like a lot and not really be much slower than you were before. Braking before the curve needs to be done sooner, and harder than you might realize. Braking while in the curve does much less than you are used to as well. It is very easy to overcook a downhill curve. Another factor is that you will be a little bit off in your steering, since the angles and dangles all look a little different than you are used to. And, you can't use as much power in the curve as you are used to, the bike is accelerating so much faster down the hill anyway. Some steep long curves you can't use power at all without going too fast for the last part of the curve.

The moral of the story?
Very simple really.
Haul ass up hill, go slow downhill.
Click to expand...

Thanks. You summarized my main issue and concern, which is the problem I encountered when I entered a downhill curve at a speed beyond my skill level. Clearly, the best thing was slowing sufficiently. My mistake in wrongly estimating the curve and the declination. The bike and I made it through but a very unsettling experience with the limiting factor being my modicum of skill. Need better techniques in the future.
 
I learned how to ride aggressively and safely in the Apennine Mountains of central Italy while stationed there. I watched crazy Italianos on their Ducatis, Guzzis, and exotic Kawasakis go up and down those mountains all day, and talked to a lot of them to try to learn how they went so fast.

The key to safety when going down steeply inclined curves is to keep your revs up. Way up. Most GSes redline around 9,000-10,000 rpm. Keep your revs in the 6-9K range. Due to heavy flywheels, the engine braking can be more effective going downhill than disc brakes.

Relying too much on your brakes will cause them to overheat and lose effectiveness. They'll get mushy and barely slow you down at all. Keep your revs up, look through the curve, and never, ever, use your front brake while heeled over halfway through the curve, especially going downhill. Your bike will stand up straight and over the edge you'll go.

I saw several mangled Ducatis at the bottoms of canyons while stationed there as well. Very sobering.
 
Griffin said:
Keep your revs up, look through the curve, and never, ever, use your front brake while heeled over halfway through the curve, especially going downhill. Your bike will stand up straight and over the edge you'll go.
Click to expand...

I'm gonna call BS on this one.
I use the front brakes all the time, uphill, downhill, heeled way over, whatever. Never had a bike stand up straight. Ever.

EDit... OK I went out and played with this, there is a very slight tendency for the bike to lean up out of the curve when using the front brake that isn't there when using the rear. I've been steering through this for so long it's not even noticeable. It's very easy to counter steer a little more and keep the angle the same, or go into the curve more if you need it. It certainly isn't like the bike will pop straight up and spit you off the road unless maybe you just grab a huge bunch of front brake and use no steering inputs at all.
 
Last edited:
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