air fuel ratio exhaust gas analyser

[Ecklund]

Hope this is the right part of the forum...

Seems I am starting to pick up more and more vehicles with carburettors. (is that spelling right or is my spell check just using european english rules?)

Anyone use/know of a decent low cost air fuel ratio exhaust gas analyser? I'll pick up a set of the recommended color (colour) tune sticks when I get home but that is just for balance of multiple carbs.

Even an older analogue version that has an exhaust probe would be very useful. I assume.

There are a few DYI jobs on Youtube but I'd like to see if there is anything commercially available that isn't silly expensive.

Thoughts?

 

[SocialAnomaly99]

I'd also like to find a decent AFR reader.

 

[posplayr]

Plain afr gauge and sensor is under $200. Start adding data logging and it goes up depending on options. To be useful is not hard but tuning requires a load like long hill. Innovate powersports have stand along gauges. I have an LM-2 setup that works but would not recommend it.

 

[Ecklund]

Plain afr gauge and sensor is under $200. Start adding data logging and it goes up depending on options. To be useful is not hard but tuning requires a load like long hill. Innovate powersports have stand along gauges. I have an LM-2 setup that works but would not recommend it.

Would not recommend it because of the cost?

Where would I look for a basic gauge and sensor?

 

[hannibal]

The standard oxygen sensor only reads rich, lean, or good. To read more resolution, you have to use a wide band oxygen. These are significantly more expensive than narrow band sensor. Plus you have to read the wide band sensor's output, and this requires a compatible gauge.

There are some homegrown and DIY solutions out there. I can't recall any right now but they're often used with low budget turbocharged builds (eg Honda).

 

[Ecklund]

The standard oxygen sensor only reads rich, lean, or good. To read more resolution, you have to use a wide band oxygen. These are significantly more expensive than narrow band sensor. Plus you have to read the wide band sensor's output, and this requires a compatible gauge.

There are some homegrown and DIY solutions out there. I can't recall any right now but they're often used with low budget turbocharged builds (eg Honda).

Well said.

I recently watched an '80s video on tuning a Yamaha V4. The factory video referenced two methods of setting the base mix and then checking the carb balance. The 'manual' method was used with what seemed like reasonable results. Then a fairly simple air fuel analyses was used. At least one of the cabs was still fairly far out even though it was as close as possible with the manual method.

Tuning under load at various RPMs with an analyzer would require what you and POSplay have indicated. I was curious if there was an inexpensive device with an exhaust probe that was available to use in the static/base tuning application. Even if it was an older technology device that was not commonly used any longer.

Doing more involved tuning on our bikes will probably always involve the adjust, ride and confirm method. I thought my 1100e was close and Chef1066, member Bill, was able to eliminate a low RPM stutter with his experience and the 'manual' method by raising the needles a bit.

I have limited carb tuning experience and thought an inexpensive, even older style, analyser would he a useful tool in getting close from the start.

 

[tatu]

As a fixed gauge in the car I used this one, it helped very much and was able to see stuff deteriorating over time and able to something about it. the outside LEDs' change colour as the mix weakens and of course gives an exact number.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AEM-30-4110...id=100005&rk=1&rkt=6&mehot=pp&sd=261571397731

 

[posplayr]

Just go to ebay: Plenty of options why even screw around with Narrowband. WBo2 sensors are a commodity automotive item. How cheap do you want it for?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Innovate-38...Kit-/191067182318?hash=item2c7c7dd4ee&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/APSX-D2-Dig...LUE-/301654998630?hash=item463c09fe66&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FAST-Air-Fu...-O2-/361357352452?hash=item5422939e04&vxp=mtr

My main cautions are that, riding around watching a gauge, make sure there is no traffic.
Having a data logger is much safer but then you need more signals for post analysis and the price goes way up.

Here is a discussion and summary of my results ; a block diagram of my system is also listed.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?164565-AFR-Info&highlight=AFR+Info

 

[Ecklund]

Just go to ebay: Plenty of options why even screw around with Narrowband. WBo2 sensors are a commodity automotive item. How cheap do you want it for?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Innovate-38...Kit-/191067182318?hash=item2c7c7dd4ee&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/APSX-D2-Dig...LUE-/301654998630?hash=item463c09fe66&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FAST-Air-Fu...-O2-/361357352452?hash=item5422939e04&vxp=mtr

My main cautions are that, riding around watching a gauge, make sure there is no traffic.
Having a data logger is much safer but then you need more signals for post analysis and the price goes way up.

Here is a discussion and summary of my results ; a block diagram of my system is also listed.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?164565-AFR-Info&highlight=AFR+Info

Sounds right.

 

[Ecklund]

As a fixed gauge in the car I used this one, it helped very much and was able to see stuff deteriorating over time and able to something about it. the outside LEDs' change colour as the mix weakens and of course gives an exact number.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AEM-30-4110...id=100005&rk=1&rkt=6&mehot=pp&sd=261571397731

This one looks pretty interesting for use on a car with a tricky carb set up.

 

[posplayr]

These guys have an WB02 output to a $1 display they can charge you $80 bucks for.
http://www.zeitronix.com/order/order.htm#ZR-2

You can see the range of prices for anything but a dedicated gauge and sensor.

 

[posplayr]

This is the cheapest AFR gauge I have seen but with no description of what it connects to? I doubt it has a WBo2 controller built in. That often requires much more than 2 wires as this one seems to have.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-52mm-Car-...LED-/261556223644?vxp=mtr&hash=item3ce5f73e9c

EDIT: I think I finally get it this is just a vacuum gauge not AFR meter.

 

[posplayr]

Would not recommend it because of the cost?

?

Complexity of integration, you need to be an engineer and at the time I had the benefit of the Innovate forum. They have since closed that down. Too much badmouthing of the products like the LM-2. The LM-1 was very robust apparently but they rushed to market with the LM-2 and have suffered support problems ever since. It might have been fixed by now but I dont know.

 

[Grimly]

This is the cheapest AFR gauge I have seen but with no description of what it connects to? I doubt it has a WBo2 controller built in. That often requires much more than 2 wires as this one seems to have.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-52mm-Car-...LED-/261556223644?vxp=mtr&hash=item3ce5f73e9c

EDIT: I think I finally get it this is just a vacuum gauge not AFR meter.

That's a cheapy narrowband gauge.


Data logging just got cheap.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/371388128072

 

[Ecklund]

Complexity of integration, you need to be an engineer and at the time I had the benefit of the Innovate forum. They have since closed that down. Too much badmouthing of the products like the LM-2. The LM-1 was very robust apparently but they rushed to market with the LM-2 and have suffered support problems ever since. It might have been fixed by now but I dont know.

Yep, not one of those. Did a bench trial once, charged one of the Lockeed guys with theft. Had to find another materials engineer to establish the defendant had actually stolen something unique; some kind of process that got carbon molecules to be sticky and form some kind of structure.

My civ pro teacher said it helped if you viewed your brain as a bath tub. Fill it up with what you needed for trial and then pull the plug.

Its enough that I admire their ability and benefit from their work; and to know I aint that.

 

[limeex2]

Before dyno's and neat electronics, Honda used a procedure call an Idle Drop. It worked well and was simple way to set the low speed stuff.

 

[posplayr]

That's a cheapy narrowband gauge.


Data logging just got cheap.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/371388128072

The problem with data logging is as a bare minimum you need RPM and AFR. If you have a long enough long hill, you can put n fixed throttle positions with say a throttle shut down and then try and figure out what the AFR was at the point where you think it is settled. But the whole process is so dynamic that without RPM you are better off just looking at the gauge and making mental notes while you ride.

 

[posplayr]

Yep, not one of those. Did a bench trial once, charged one of the Lockeed guys with theft. Had to find another materials engineer to establish the defendant had actually stolen something unique; some kind of process that got carbon molecules to be sticky and form some kind of structure.

My civ pro teacher said it helped if you viewed your brain as a bath tub. Fill it up with what you needed for trial and then pull the plug.

Its enough that I admire their ability and benefit from their work; and to know I aint that.

Well, that is a bit ethereal. To be more specific about the issues encountered, the RPM input on the LM-2 doesn't seem to work even with the provided inductive pickup. Because I wanted more inputs, I integrated the LM-2 with the LMA-3. The LMA-3 has related issues with timing. It would not record both RPM and SPEED at the same time. I could get one or the other but not both. I finally opened the LMA-3 up and found out what the risetime on the input circuit would typically be too slow provide a stable signal. Designed a couple of simple mods to insure the rise time on my inductive wheel sensor pickup and the thing works like a charm.

Tech support was zero help, and other the main contributors of the Innovate forum really had no specific guidance either. The answer only came from analyzing the data sheet of the input circuit IC with another engineer that the issue became clear. I do a lot of h/w software integration as some of my job skills, I'm not going to say I was ever lost, but the whole setup is somewhat fickle to say the least. And in the case of these timing signals it both LM-2 and LMA-3 are both defective. Not impossible to get around, but that took a significant amount of effort.

 

[Ecklund]

Well, that is a bit ethereal. To be more specific about the issues encountered, the RPM input on the LM-2 doesn't seem to work even with the provided inductive pickup. Because I wanted more inputs, I integrated the LM-2 with the LMA-3. The LMA-3 has related issues with timing. It would not record both RPM and SPEED at the same time. I could get one or the other but not both. I finally opened the LMA-3 up and found out what the risetime on the input circuit would typically be too slow provide a stable signal. Designed a couple of simple mods to insure the rise time on my inductive wheel sensor pickup and the thing works like a charm.

Tech support was zero help, and other the main contributors of the Innovate forum really had no specific guidance either. The answer only came from analyzing the data sheet of the input circuit IC with another engineer that the issue became clear. I do a lot of h/w software integration as some of my job skills, I'm not going to say I was ever lost, but the whole setup is somewhat fickle to say the least. And in the case of these timing signals it both LM-2 and LMA-3 are both defective. Not impossible to get around, but that took a significant amount of effort.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Maybe not impossible for you, but just not worth the effort even if it was possible for me.

But thanks for the info. I'll dig around on eBay and see what I can see.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Sea...hash=item3f5184658f&item=271950570895&vxp=mtr

Looks good. But don't know how useful it will be.