Another charging dilemma

[Guest]

Short story long; I am working on my '82 1100L and when I bought it I quickly discovered a problem with charging.
I bought a new battery although the old one was probably still ok (wanted to rule it out). Tested the original (or at least it had stock wire colors) stator and it was generating 40 volts on all three legs @ 5000 rpm's. So I ordered a Caltric and an sh775.
Put the stator on and tested the battery voltage at 12 volts @ all rpm's. Wires got hot and I decided to put the sh775 on. Still tested 12 volts @ all rpm's.
Tested the stator and it was generating 10 volts @ idle, 30 volts @ 3000 and 40 volts @ 5000.
Assuming I fried t with the old r/r I ordered another Caltric. I put it on tonight and get the exact readings as before. 10 @ idle, 30 @ 3000 , 40 @ 5000 and 45 @ redline. And 12 at the battery @ all rpm's. Still not charging.
All terminals have been cleaned, bypassed the headlight loop and wired directly to the r/r and combined grounds and run them directly to the - terminal on the battery.
Still going through the positive wire the old one ran through.
I've read that the (magneto?) rarely fails but I'm stuck with three scenarios.
1) the magneto is failing.
2) the Caltric' s are bad or they're sending me the wrong ones.
3) whatever I'm screwing up.
Has anyone had problems with the Caltric's? I've read nothing but good about them.

 

[Steve]

I have a couple of Caltrics, no problems with them.

Your AC voltages are rather low. If you had magnets in the rotor for a 12-pole setup, voltages would also be low (if they even existed), but I don't know that they made 12-pole magnets in a large rotor for an 1100.

What is the diameter of your stator? How does that compare with the inner diameter of your rotor? If there is too much of a gap, your voltage will be low.

Don't throw your first Caltric away, there is virtually no chance that you fried it by running it for a few minutes with the old R/R.

.

 

[Grimly]

If the gap is ok, what's then needed is a known good rotor and test the magnetic strength of the poles in it, then test the suspect one.
Heat and mechanical damage will weaken them, over time. Luckily for us, these Suzuki rotors have proven to be long-lived, but the generation before that was notorious for weakness after a few years. Even so, these ones aren't as strong as later improvements and will eventually lose their power.

 

[Guest]

Thanks Steve, I measured the old Caltric and the "original" stator this morning before I left for work and they are both 4.055" od and both 18 pole.
I will pull the side cover tonight and measure the rotor id.
I didn't throw either stator away because neither appeared burnt at all.
I haven't read anywhere that they put a 12 pole on anything after '81 but if they did what would I be looking for in the rotor? Was that determined by diameter?

 

[Grimly]

Iirc, the rotor for the 12-pole stator had 8 magnetic poles in it. You can run a screwdriver around the inside of the rotor and see how many times it grabs. If yours grabs 12 times, it's an 18-pole rotor.

 

[Guest]

Thanks grimly, I also found this,

Steve
GS Whisperer

With the cover (and stator) removed, use a piece of metal that you won't mind if it gets magnetized, and run it around the inside of the rotor. It will pull and stop in several locations. If it pulls in FOUR spots, you need a 12-pole rotor. If it pulls in SIX spots, you need an 18-pole rotor.



I haven't searched the air gap yet but what would be optimal?

And what does iirc mean? I see it alot but can't figure it out.

 

[cowboyup3371]

And what does iirc mean? I see it alot but can't figure it out.

IIRC - If I Remember Correctly

 

[Guest]

IIRC - If I Remember Correctly

Thank you, that was driving me nuts more than my stator.

 

[Steve]

I have no idea what the ultimate air gap would be, but there is a very distinct difference in the stator size between the 850 and smaller bikes' rotors and the 1000 and larger bikes' rotors. You measured about 4 inches on the stator, I would expect about 4 1/8 to 4 1/4" on the inside of the rotor.

I have measured stators. The larger bikes have a 103mm diameter, which is 4.055", as you have measured. The smaller bikes have a stator that is only 93mm, or 3.66", so at least you have the correct diameter.

As far as the number of poles, the only (GS) bikes I have seen with a 12-pole stator were ones that had kick starters. That rules out all the 1000s and anything from model year '80 or later. The largest bike with a kick starter was the '79 850, but that had the smaller stator, so I don't think you have a 12-pole rotor.

If nothing else, let's pick a weekend, bring it down to my shop, we'll figure it out. :-k

.

 

[Guest]

That is a very generous offer Steve and I may do that if I get totally stumped and a weekend off. I'm not far from the stumped comment, though.

I remember reading about the width or thickness of the stator having effect on its output. And I remember reading someone saying ( I'm almost sure it was you) that these Caltric's are well wound but thinner than OEM.
I've not measured my rotor yet (still at work) but could a weak rotor, as Grimly mentioned, along with a light stator cause this?

 

[Steve]

I don't remember making a statement that the Caltrics were thinner, although they just might be. I have not compiled the width of the stator in my spreadsheet to know what bikes may have had thinner stators to start with, so I just don't know if it even matters.

I remember someone saying (quite some time ago, so don't remember who it was) that an overheated magnet (rotor) might be weakened, which would reduce the output. Without getting out a Gauss meter, I would have no way of telling if it was compromised.

.

 

[Guest]

I decided to purchase a digital multimeter with more functions than I'll ever understand and put the analog one in the junk drawer.
I found a very small file in my toolbox that fit inside the blade connectors and cleaned them again. I found the auxiliary terminal on the fusebox had only 4 volts so I removed it and cleaned the fuse sockets then re-sprayed with Deoxit .
Then I started back at the beginning of the quick test.

12.71 v, key off
12.27 v, key on
13.18 v @ 1000 rpm
13.76 v @ 2500 rpm
13.99 v @ 5000 rpm
12.92 v, key off

It is maintaining the battery but the starter still hesitate momentarily so I'm going to continue testing switches, solenoid and starter.
But for now it's running. I'm happy with the Caltric and sh-775 so far. And the new meter.

 

[posplayr]

I decided to purchase a digital multimeter with more functions than I'll ever understand and put the analog one in the junk drawer.
I found a very small file in my toolbox that fit inside the blade connectors and cleaned them again. I found the auxiliary terminal on the fusebox had only 4 volts so I removed it and cleaned the fuse sockets then re-sprayed with Deoxit .
Then I started back at the beginning of the quick test.

12.71 v, key off
12.27 v, key on
13.18 v @ 1000 rpm
13.76 v @ 2500 rpm
13.99 v @ 5000 rpm
12.92 v, key off

It is maintaining the battery but the starter still hesitate momentarily so I'm going to continue testing switches, solenoid and starter.
But for now it's running. I'm happy with the Caltric and sh-775 so far. And the new meter.

Not too bad, just barely below 14V when you have time measure the voltage drops as there are probably a little high. Revised Phase A tests.

 

[wymple]

I decided to purchase a digital multimeter with more functions than I'll ever understand and put the analog one in the junk drawer.
I found a very small file in my toolbox that fit inside the blade connectors and cleaned them again. I found the auxiliary terminal on the fusebox had only 4 volts so I removed it and cleaned the fuse sockets then re-sprayed with Deoxit .
Then I started back at the beginning of the quick test.

12.71 v, key off
12.27 v, key on
13.18 v @ 1000 rpm
13.76 v @ 2500 rpm
13.99 v @ 5000 rpm
12.92 v, key off

It is maintaining the battery but the starter still hesitate momentarily so I'm going to continue testing switches, solenoid and starter.
But for now it's running. I'm happy with the Caltric and sh-775 so far. And the new meter.

These readings don't scare me any. I haven't been any better than that for several years without problems.

 

[Guest]

Not too bad, just barely below 14V when you have time measure the voltage drops as there are probably a little high. Revised Phase A tests.

Yes, on to the Stator Papers and a more thorough harness cleaning and ground check.

 

[Guest]

These readings don't scare me any. I haven't been any better than that for several years without problems.

I'm certainly happy with these numbers.

 

[posplayr]

I'm certainly happy with these numbers.

"Out of sight out of mind" is how I would respond to the notions of "good enough". If you really have 0.5v drop and it could easily be in the positive side of the battery you are looking at at least a 5 watt heater some where in the wiring. These types of things are known to melt fuseboxes.

if the voltage drop is split then your are still dropping 5watts but it distributed better. Don't expect it to get better depending on the humidity in your area it will get progressively worse .

 

[Who Dat?]

If your red lily have 0.5v drop and it could easily be in the positive side of the battery ...

Please pardon my ignorance, but what's a "red lily"?

 

[posplayr]

Please pardon my ignorance, but what's a "red lily"?

iPhone autocorrect "really"

 

[Guest]

"Out of sight out of mind" is how I would respond to the notions of "good enough". If your red lily have 0.5v drop and it could easily be in the positive side of the battery you are looking at at least a 5 watt heater some where in the wiring. These types of things are known to melt fuseboxes.

if the voltage drop is split then your are still dropping 5watts but it distributed better. Don't expect it to get better depending on the humidity in your area it will get progressively worse .

Oh, I agree! I'm happy with the trend but far from done. The more understanding I get the deeper I want to dig. I've been searching the site (which I've found is creativity in the keywords) and have discovered much.
I thank you guys for caring about us (me the electrically challenged) enough to put in the effort.