Bad battery after ~3 months?

[eil]

An unloaded voltage test doesn't say anything about the condition or charge of the battery. A lead acid battery can be almost completely discharged and still read 12V on a voltmeter. To test it right, you need to apply a decent load to it and then check the voltage. They make a tool for this.

Or just hook it up to the trickle charger until it says it's charged, then you know it's good. Then you can proceed with the charging system tests mentioned above.

 

[tkent02]

Or just hook it up to the trickle charger until it says it's charged, then you know it's good. Then you can proceed with the charging system tests mentioned above.

Except you still don't know the battery is good.

 

[incarceration]

An unloaded voltage test doesn't say anything about the condition or charge of the battery. A lead acid battery can be almost completely discharged and still read 12V on a voltmeter. To test it right, you need to apply a decent load to it and then check the voltage. They make a tool for this.

Yes, I am well aware of this. But you will not have the same voltages of a "completely discharged" (even when that definition means it is dead verified by 0V) battery that are not the same voltage of what it should be for a specific situation. Besides, this battery was putting out 12.89V on its own, disconnected, that's almost 13V, not 12V.

Anyway, I put the battery back in and it's reporting above 13.5V when idle and (actually around 14.8V idling) and well above 14.5V when going to 5k RPMs.

So, per the guide, it says to check the positive lead coming from the positive terminal of the battery to the RED wire of the VRR? How do I do that?

I've uploaded 2 videos of the procedure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzGIDxTR8F8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExYdBI2__BM

 

[posplayr]

Yes, I am well aware of this. But you will not have the same voltages of a "completely discharged" (even when that definition means it is dead verified by 0V) battery that are not the same voltage of what it should be for a specific situation. Besides, this battery was putting out 12.89V on its own, disconnected, that's almost 13V, not 12V.

Anyway, I put the battery back in and it's reporting above 13.5V when idle and (actually around 14.8V idling) and well above 14.5V when going to 5k RPMs.

So, per the guide, it says to check the positive lead coming from the positive terminal of the battery to the RED wire of the VRR? How do I do that?

I've uploaded 2 videos of the procedure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzGIDxTR8F8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExYdBI2__BM

There is a modified phase A test where you test t he voltage drops at 5K RPM. I don't know why the original papers ever specified the test at idle, but that is when the least amount of current is running to the battery.

Make sure you do these two tests and report the results for diagnosis.
STEP #2 MEASURE POSITIVE LEAD VOLTAGE DROP
STEP #3 MEASURE NEGATIVE LEAD VOLTAGE DROP


Link to Revised PHASE A of Stator Pages:
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/3970459/stator-papers-phase-a-pdf-may-13-2012-10-43-am-55k?da=y
ORIGINAL_STATOR_PAGES

The most important thing to do checks at 5000 RPM which is typical cruising speed. You might find that you will need to clean your fuse box to get the positive side voltage drops below 0.2V at 5000 RPM. In steps #1 above you should of gotten most of the connections between the R/R(+) to battery (+) in good shape except the fuse box.

Also while it is a bity late you might look at the Quick Test. It would have given your charging system a quick one over including confirming the battery was good enough to test the charging system

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?p=1272192#post1272192

Also when doing the voltage drop tests at least pull the seat off and stab the battery center posts and compare to the corresponding R/R connections..

 

[incarceration]

Hey! Thanks for the quick response and the updated Stator Papers!

I just performed that test (no video as it's too dark) and here are my results:

NEG (BLACK) lead of DMM connected to POS (RED) lead of battery and POS (RED) lead of DMM connected to RED wire on far RIGHT of VRR (voltage regulator\rectifier) resulted in ~0.1VDC idling, when revving engine up to ~5,000 RPMs, the DMM reports ~0.6VDC.

POS (RED) lead of DMM connected to NEG (BLACK) lead of battery and NEG (BLACK) lead of DMM connected to NEG (BLACK\WHITE) wire on far LEFT of VRR (voltage regulator\rectifier) resulted in ~0.08VDC idling, when revving engine up to ~5,000 RPMs, the DMM reports a MAXIMUM of 0.3VDC

So, per this new guide, it still suggests the POS (RED) lead from VRR to the POS (RED) of the battery. How do I go about checking this? The reason I ask is it seems to go up under the seat and into other sorts of wire wraps and stuff. Or is there an easier way?

BTW, the other part of your post I couldn't get as it's far too dark to pull the seat off etc, and, here in FL, when it gets dark, the mosquitoes come out in SWARMS lol. I'll do those tests again and report back + a video if I feel necessary or someone would feel so inclined to want one

Thanks

 

[posplayr]

Hey! Thanks for the quick response and the updated Stator Papers!

I just performed that test (no video as it's too dark) and here are my results:

NEG (BLACK) lead of DMM connected to POS (RED) lead of battery and POS (RED) lead of DMM connected to RED wire on far RIGHT of VRR (voltage regulator\rectifier) resulted in ~0.1VDC idling, when revving engine up to ~5,000 RPMs, the DMM reports ~0.6VDC.

POS (RED) lead of DMM connected to NEG (BLACK) lead of battery and NEG (BLACK) lead of DMM connected to NEG (BLACK\WHITE) wire on far LEFT of VRR (voltage regulator\rectifier) resulted in ~0.08VDC idling, when revving engine up to ~5,000 RPMs, the DMM reports a MAXIMUM of 0.3VDC

So, per this new guide, it still suggests the POS (RED) lead from VRR to the POS (RED) of the battery. How do I go about checking this? The reason I ask is it seems to go up under the seat and into other sorts of wire wraps and stuff. Or is there an easier way?

BTW, the other part of your post I couldn't get as it's far too dark to pull the seat off etc, and, here in FL, when it gets dark, the mosquitoes come out in SWARMS lol. I'll do those tests again and report back + a video if I feel necessary or someone would feel so inclined to want one

Thanks

0.6 and 0.3 volts means you are loosing 0.9V at 5000 RPM. If the regulation is 14.5 (typical), then you will be down to 13.6V max at the battery.

It is in the connections. Get some naval jelly and dielectric grease and follow the schematic for the red leads. If all else fails the positive side can be fixed with a fuse straight to the battery but I would see if you can fix the stock current paths. Also need to clean the fuse box. After cleaning flow solder into the connections and then use dielectric grease on the remaining connections.

 

[incarceration]

Where is the fuse box located typically? Under the seat? I remember looking for it awhile back and never found it but I never really dug deep.

Are we talking like a 45min job here or like an entire weekend job?

Thanks for the info.

Btw, are you calculating the 0.9VDC loss because I reversed the polarity when taking the 2 measurments from the battery to the VRR?

 

[posplayr]

Where is the fuse box located typically? Under the seat? I remember looking for it awhile back and never found it but I never really dug deep.

Are we talking like a 45min job here or like an entire weekend job?

Thanks for the info.

Btw, are you calculating the 0.9VDC loss because I reversed the polarity when taking the 2 measurments from the battery to the VRR?

No I'm adding the positive and negative drops.

The other way to do it a little more complicated is to measure the R/R output at 5000 rpm and then the battery voltage at 5000 rpm. You will probably find a 0.9V difference.

It usually takes a few hours of mucking around, but nothing too intense. Fuse boxes are normally under the left side cover. Your may only have a single fuse; I did not check.

 

[cowboyup3371]

According to the parts fiche, you only have a single inline fuse off the positive post of your battery.

 

[incarceration]

I have 1 fuse coming off of the positive at the junction of the terminal end that connects to the starter relay. I don't know of any other fuses.

Is that what you're referring to, cowboyup?

Also, I've checked out the wiring schematic, and not sure what this part is that i squared off in a green square:
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/627/i4y.png

Any ideas what that symbolizes on that wire? Cause that is the wire I have to find and if there's any identification of what those things are on the wire it would potentially help me find the wire.

Thanks guys!

 

[posplayr]

That looks like an inline fuse and a bullet connector. There has to be a fuse between the battery and the rest of the system. Also notice where there is a "dot" between where the r/r red joins withe the fused wire from battery; there is a crimp there but inside the harness. Probably no more that 3-4 inches in. Find that And rune solder into it as well

 

[incarceration]

Yeah that red dot I put there because the schematic had it on there and that signifies being a connection between the 2.

There is the one fuse between the battery and the rest of the system via the smaller wire that is crimped to the larger wire that's attached to the starter relay, there isn't a fuse between the starter relay and the battery though.

Alright I'll try and track down the wire from the other wire with the fuse

 

[posplayr]

Yeah that red dot I put there because the schematic had it on there and that signifies being a connection between the 2.

There is the one fuse between the battery and the rest of the system via the smaller wire that is crimped to the larger wire that's attached to the starter relay, there isn't a fuse between the starter relay and the battery though.

Alright I'll try and track down the wire from the other wire with the fuse

Generally not considered a risk.

 

[incarceration]

Generally not considered a risk.

Yeah, cause it's a very short distance.

Anyway, I checked out the wire and chased it down, it goes from the POS (RED) battery terminal to an eyelet-like, copper connector that goes onto the POS post of the starter relay, that same eyelet-like, copper connector has another wire come out of it and crimped into it and that goes to the fuse, then to a little plug type connector with a plastic sheath over it and then it goes into some electrical tape and then into the VRR (voltage regulator\rectifier.)

I stripped off all of the electrical tape and then discovered there was 2 wires that were crimped with a brass clip, crimping 3 wires together, 1 coming from the RED wire of the VRR, 1 coming from the wire that goes to the fuse and then to the POS post of the starter relay and another that went off somewhere up into some more electrical-tape-wrapped wires. I cut off the connection with the 3 wires and soldered them all together then put new electrical tape wrapped around them all.

Before and after all of this, I checked the start up and it seems to be back to starting right up on the first crank, but the diagnostic tests I was told to run, where I get the voltage from the POS post of the starter relay and the RED wire of the VRR, is still yielding huge jumps. So because of this, and after doing the above where I redid the solder connection at one spot (as well as before doing this actually), I just tested the voltage from the POS post on the starter relay and then only to the other side of the fuse, furthest from the NEG lead of my DMM and it was doing the same thing. Is it the fuse that is causing all of this? All that's between the 2 DMM leads at that time is a piece of wire, 2 crimped on connectors that have the fuse snap into place and a fuse, that's it.

The fuse is a 15A fuse. That shouldn't matter though as it'll just allow too little or too much current through before blowing, or blow too much, depending on current.

What else should I check? Like I said, the bike is starting back up like it should now for some reason (it did before I did anything today) and I never even did anything except take the motorcycle battery out and then a couple days later at most, put it back in.

 

[posplayr]

Yeah, cause it's a very short distance.

No because solenoids do not often short out and if it did it would probably run the starter into the ground and not burn the harness,

Anyway, I checked out the wire and chased it down, it goes from the POS (RED) battery terminal to an eyelet-like, copper connector that goes onto the POS post of the starter relay, that same eyelet-like, copper connector has another wire come out of it and crimped into it and that goes to the fuse, then to a little plug type connector with a plastic sheath over it and then it goes into some electrical tape and then into the VRR (voltage regulator\rectifier.)

I stripped off all of the electrical tape and then discovered there was 2 wires that were crimped with a brass clip, crimping 3 wires together, 1 coming from the RED wire of the VRR, 1 coming from the wire that goes to the fuse and then to the POS post of the starter relay and another that went off somewhere up into some more electrical-tape-wrapped wires. I cut off the connection with the 3 wires and soldered them all together then put new electrical tape wrapped around them all.

Before and after all of this, I checked the start up and it seems to be back to starting right up on the first crank, but the diagnostic tests I was told to run, where I get the voltage from the POS post of the starter relay and the RED wire of the VRR, is still yielding huge jumps. So because of this, and after doing the above where I redid the solder connection at one spot (as well as before doing this actually), I just tested the voltage from the POS post on the starter relay and then only to the other side of the fuse, furthest from the NEG lead of my DMM and it was doing the same thing. Is it the fuse that is causing all of this? All that's between the 2 DMM leads at that time is a piece of wire, 2 crimped on connectors that have the fuse snap into place and a fuse, that's it.

The fuse is a 15A fuse. That shouldn't matter though as it'll just allow too little or too much current through before blowing, or blow too much, depending on current.

What else should I check? Like I said, the bike is starting back up like it should now for some reason (it did before I did anything today) and I never even did anything except take the motorcycle battery out and then a couple days later at most, put it back in.

For a sanity check do the "Quick Test" to see what is happening. Put the test leads directly onto the battery posts (I/e/ stab the centers of the posts)

It sounds like you probably chased down any stray corrosion/resistance if you cleaned all those connections. Remember the connector/pin crimps are the worst so hopefully you used something like naval jelly instead of sand paper.

Fuses don't last for ever and the voltage tests are the best way to detect issues. It only takes 0.1 ohms with 10 amps to get a 1V drop. That means instead of charging at 14.5V you are charging at 13.5V (I don't know how many times I have given this example).

Do you have more than 0.1 ohms in all those connections?:-k

 

[incarceration]

For a sanity check do the "Quick Test" to see what is happening. Put the test leads directly onto the battery posts (I/e/ stab the centers of the posts)

It sounds like you probably chased down any stray corrosion/resistance if you cleaned all those connections. Remember the connector/pin crimps are the worst so hopefully you used something like naval jelly instead of sand paper.

Fuses don't last for ever and the voltage tests are the best way to detect issues. It only takes 0.1 ohms with 10 amps to get a 1V drop. That means instead of charging at 14.5V you are charging at 13.5V (I don't know how many times I have given this example).

Do you have more than 0.1 ohms in all those connections?:-k

I'm assuming you're talking about the connectors connecting to the fuse, to the starter relay, and the plug connectors and where they are crimped into each connector? I didn't do anything to them after inspection, Are you suggesting to do something to those connectors and/or replace the fuse?

 

[posplayr]

I'm assuming you're talking about the connectors connecting to the fuse, to the starter relay, and the plug connectors and where they are crimped into each connector? I didn't do anything to them after inspection, Are you suggesting to do something to those connectors and/or replace the fuse?

Any resistance (greater than 0.04 ohms) between the R/R(+) and Battery (+) or R?R(-) and Battery(-) can be detrimental to charging voltage at the battery. It sounds like my assumption is making an A$$ out of .......... You need to clean the connections and probably replace that fuse.

I also suggested doing a "Quick Test"

 

[Guest]

You seem to have a pretty simple system. Why don't you just replace the battery cables and all the connectors mentioned while posplayr still has some hair left to pull out. He probably knows more about this than most people on dozens of forums. Forget you think you know anything at all about it and just do it. There are hundreds of people on this forum who owe their functioning electrical systems to posplayr including me. I will admit that my electronics training was on 35 year old Destroyers in Vietnam, and I was an electrician later before I retired, but Posplayr has still taught me a lot and as a result I have no problems with my modernized electrical system. http://www.z1enterprises.com/ListItems.aspx?keywords=Battery+cables