Battery Charged, Starter Spins Slowly, No Start

[cowboyup3371]

Finally finished putting everything back together last night after rebuilding the starter. I've had the bike running a dozen times since putting the starter into place as I synched the carbs again as well tested a few things. When I drove in this morning, the bike started just fine on and drove without any issues from what I saw. When I came out from work today, the bike started up okay and rode home with a friend who wanted to go for a ride. I changed clothes, came back out, and the bike took a few times of turning over before it actually fired which I thought was strange but off we went. As we came up on one intersection I decided to pull off ahead to look at my directions and shut the bike down. However, when I tried to start it back up the starter turned extremely slowly and the bike wouldn't fire at all. My friend gave me a bump start and I made it the 20 miles back to the house without a problem.

Once we got back to my place, I left the bike running and grabbed the multimeter. At idle, I was putting out 14.5volts at the battery so I know it was charging. I shut the bike off and verified I had 12.7 volts on the battery with the key on. I also checked the battery side of the starter solenoid where it was at 12.5 and the starter solenoid side of the battery showed 11 when I pushed the start button. I also shorted across the solenoid with a screwdriver resulting in the starter turning but the engine still didn't fire.

After calling Steve, we tested a few more areas. With the probe in the orange white wire at the coil side of the ignitor connector, I had 12v without pressing the starter button. Pressing the button dropped the voltage down to 10v. I had the same results at each of the coils as well. He also had me use my meter wire to test straight from the battery positive with the probe sitting next to the orange white wire and no change.

Every connection was replaced in March; the one wire I said was out of its terminal was for the gear display and that is back in and working great. All of my fuses are good and all of my grounds are good. I also know I'm getting spark since I drove the 20 miles back to the house without incident.

I don't know what could be causing my problem. Any ideas as to what I should check next?

 

[cowboyup3371]

Autozone load tested my battery a few weeks ago and said it was good (AGM)

 

[1980GS1000]

Stator or voltage regulator

Stator or voltage regulator

Have you tested these? My voltage regulator is just starting to go bad on my gs1000. It just barely keeps the battery charged. There are videos on YouTube on how to test the stator and voltage regulator.

 

[Flyboy]

Scott, if you are getting 14+ volts at the battery while idling I would question the load test, seriously.
Sounds like you in for a new battery, sorry bro.

 

[Missile99]

Since the bike starts with a small boost it seems that the starter is not binding and drawing the battery down too much. +1 with Flyboy, sounds like the battery is nearly toast. From your info I don't know what else it could be. Maybe another parts store nearby to verify this?

 

[koolaid_kid]

Missile, no mention was made of using jumper cables, the bike was push started.
The system is charging, since it showed 14.5 volts.
The AGM battery showed good under a load test.
Since pressing the starter button or jumping the solenoid drops the voltage so drastically, my next move would be to pull the starter and inspect it. Sounds like it is pulling way too much current (can't tell unless you have a clamp-on current DC multimeter). Steve does, but he travels a lot.

 

[cowboyup3371]

George, so there's no other way to test that? Would it be something I would have put back together incorrectly when I replaced the brushes even though it started just fine for those first several times?

 

[koolaid_kid]

Unfortunately, none that I am aware of (I admit, I don't know everything, so there may be another way). Connecting a car battery would not really be a valid test, since the CCA is so much greater than a motorcycle battery the voltage drop would not be noticeable. Using a different motorcycle battery would be somewhat of a sanity check, just to make sure the load test was accurate.
Is there no one else around where you are located? Not sure Josh has a clamp multimeter, I never heard him mention it before. I have one, but I use it, so sending it to you is not a viable option.
Did you take any pics when you had it apart? Did you do a complete rebuild, including bearings/bushings, or just replace the brushes? Did you clean/redress the armature? If so, what type of cleaner did you use? I am assuming the connections between battery/solenoid and solenoid/starter are clean and corrosion free.
There are multiple ways things could go wrong inside the starter, including the magnets coming unglued, according to what I have read.

 

[tkent02]

14.5 Volts at idle? Really?

How about at higher RPMs?

Maybe your regulator isn't regulating and overcharging has cooked the battery?

I've never sen 14 Volts at idle on a bike with a good charging system.

 

[terrylee]

That what I thought too, that is too high at idle. Look at the stator papers on Basscliff's site and see what results you get. Since sounds as though you replaced all the wire connections that shouldn't be a problem, but check to make sure none are burnt between stator and r/r, and if you haven't done so already bypass the old wires going up to the frt, that connect the red r/r wire and hook directly to batt. positive with in-line fuse, and hook the three wires from stator directly to the r/r. terrylee

 

[cowboyup3371]

Unfortunately, none that I am aware of (I admit, I don't know everything, so there may be another way). Connecting a car battery would not really be a valid test, since the CCA is so much greater than a motorcycle battery the voltage drop would not be noticeable. Using a different motorcycle battery would be somewhat of a sanity check, just to make sure the load test was accurate.
Is there no one else around where you are located? Not sure Josh has a clamp multimeter, I never heard him mention it before. I have one, but I use it, so sending it to you is not a viable option.
Did you take any pics when you had it apart? Did you do a complete rebuild, including bearings/bushings, or just replace the brushes? Did you clean/redress the armature? If so, what type of cleaner did you use? I am assuming the connections between battery/solenoid and solenoid/starter are clean and corrosion free.
There are multiple ways things could go wrong inside the starter, including the magnets coming unglued, according to what I have read.

Here's the link to my starter thread. I didn't take pictures to how I placed the brushes back in but they went with the brushes facing the rear of the starter just like the parts fiche shows. I replaced just the brushes not the bearings. Where are those at?

I cleaned the armature using a small file and lightly scraping it along the plates as I rotated the entire assembly. This was a suggestion from Steve and you can see how clean the copper itself became. I didn't use any other cleaner anywhere.

EDITED TO ADD: I haven't talked to Josh as he's been pretty busy with work but hopefully others will see this thread and will be able to offer up if they have that style of multimeter. I saw one at Sears for $60 but is it something I'll use enough to need to get?

14.5 Volts at idle? Really?

How about at higher RPMs?

Maybe your regulator isn't regulating and overcharging has cooked the battery?

I've never sen 14 Volts at idle on a bike with a good charging system.

I'm going to take the battery back to OReilly's this time and have them test it. Autozone has really irritated me on too many other issues that I don't really trust them. However, this Autozone store I used before is pretty close to the house so I figured what the heck. I'll just drive the extra two miles to the OReillys.

I didnt test at higher RPMs last night but I did on Thursday and noted at 4000RPM I was at 14.7volts.

 

[koolaid_kid]

Well, I don't think owning one would be cost effective since you don't work on electrical systems all the time. I would also be the last one to suggest that you purchase one, use it until you have the starter functioning properly again, then return it. Just thinking out loud here.

 

[koolaid_kid]

"Normally" a starter will have a bearing or a bushing at each end. In your case, I would look into the starter housing and check there. "Usually", if it is binding you will see heat-related discoloring of the metal shaft where the bearing/bushing rides.

 

[cowboyup3371]

Just load tested the battery at oreillys using 200 cca and it passed good at 12.7 volts. I don't have the cash to buy one today so I will have to wait. Hopefully Steve will let me borrow his when he gets back in town this week.

This is aggravating; haven't had a full riding season yet in the last couple of years.

 

[cowboyup3371]

That what I thought too, that is too high at idle. Look at the stator papers on Basscliff's site and see what results you get. Since sounds as though you replaced all the wire connections that shouldn't be a problem, but check to make sure none are burnt between stator and r/r, and if you haven't done so already bypass the old wires going up to the frt, that connect the red r/r wire and hook directly to batt. positive with in-line fuse, and hook the three wires from stator directly to the r/r. terrylee

Just now seen this Terry, been done that way for a long time but thank you for the reminder.

 

[cowboyup3371]

"Normally" a starter will have a bearing or a bushing at each end. In your case, I would look into the starter housing and check there. "Usually", if it is binding you will see heat-related discoloring of the metal shaft where the bearing/bushing rides.

Just to ask because I don't see any mention anywhere and I don't know but does the fact that I'm losing a volt across the solenoid mean anything? I have never seen any definitive test to say the solenoid itself is doing fine. I thought by shorting across that would make the starter turn better but since there's no change could that mean the solenoid itself has gone bad?

I went back and double-checked the parts fiche for any bearings and there's none shown (see below) and I don't have any extra parts laying around. If you think it's best I can try to take the starter apart again and see. Is there another way to test the starter besides connecting a ground to it from the battery and the positive to the post? Parts 4 and 5 were very thin shims.

 

[koolaid_kid]

Jumping across the posts on the solenoid bypasses it completely, taking it out of the picture. If the behavior is the same, chances are it is fine.
Looking at part #2, disregarding the windings and such it is a shaft. A shaft needs to be supported on both ends. It is entirely possible that the splines on the right end of the shaft are supporting that end. The left end also needs support as well. Since it does not even have a part number, there should be a bushing or a bearing in the part that the #14 bolts slide through to bolt to the engine case. Not saying that is bad, but that is where it would be located.
Personally, unless you are really busy, I would just go ahead and remove the starter and take it apart again and inspect things. I read your starter brush replacement thread, so I know you have done it before. A visual inspection is worth a ton of conjecture.

 

[Missile99]

Koolaid_kid, thanks for catching my error earlier. The GS Resources overall has a very high percentage of well educated people. That's a huge reason I can't get enough of this forum. So many complete sentences here and people that keep emotion in their words to a minimum. Amazing. This has to be the very best one on the internet. I wish there were more people like this around where I live. This world is too full of dumb people who always think they're right and never offer to help anybody.

So the voltage loss is >1 volt across the solenoid? I was thinking that it was 11 volts on either side of it. What does the multimeter read when you put each lead on respective battery and starter side of the relay and try and start it?

I don't know about testing the starter for excessive draw, but doesn't the parts stores test these too? Maybe someone has a current draw spec that they can share if it comes to that. I don't think so yet. It spins good sometimes and seems like nothing was missed during reassembly.

 

[cowboyup3371]

Okay, took the starter out of the bike and tested it using the battery. Video here -


I'll take it apart and do another video

 

[cowboyup3371]

Here's a video of me taking it apart...



I apologize for how crappy it is; pretty difficult to do everything one handed (I envy those who have to). The copper is now black and the brushes look okay but worn down obviously. I put the left end back into the bearing and it spins okay so I don't know what to make of that.