Battery draining fast...regulator??

[chuckycheese]

Voltimeter readings

Voltimeter readings

Well, my multimeter has 2 settings for testing DC current...200mA and 10A. I tried both everywhere and got no readings, whatsoever. If I disconnect the battery and measure voltage from the negative battery post to the negative cable, I'm at least able to get a reading there...and it is .9 on the 200mV DC scale.

I know my battery drain is significant because if I fully charge my battery and let it sit unhooked, it will maintain a high charge for a long time. Once I hook it to the bike, it will go dead within about4 hours, or so.

I really appreciate all the time you've spent with me but I'm just about ready to give up (not quite, but I'm getting really close). I think this problem is simply beyond me and I'm also suspecting there may be more than one problem.

 

[Boondocks]

I assume that you did the current check with all fuses and the ignition plug reconnected, otherwise it's invalid. If your meter is accurate (I would doublecheck with another meter), you are using it properly and you are unable to get any current readings using the 200 mA scale, then the meter is indicating that there is no readable current leak. Your voltage reading of .9 mV (.0009V) is meaningless.

In order for your battery to go from full charge to fully discharged in four hours, using a theoretical example of a new, fully charged 14AH battery, it would have to have a drain of about 3.5 amps, or 45 watts over that time. If something that drastic were happening, you probably would have found it.

When you say that the battery is "dead" after four hours, have you checked the voltage of the battery to confirm it? Do the lights still work? Or does the starter refuse to start it? Depending on the symptoms, it's possible that you could, for example, have a starter problem that allows the bike to start only when it comes right off the charger with extra voltage from the surface charge. After about four hours, the surface charge dissipates and the battery returns to normal lower voltage. If a starter were going bad, it might not work at the normal voltage range.

Try this. Fully charge the battery with all cables connected and read the voltage across the positive and negative terminals. Let the bike sit for four hours and read the voltage again. Report the results.

 

[tconroy]

I assume that you did the current check with all fuses and the ignition plug reconnected, otherwise it's invalid. If your meter is accurate (I would doublecheck with another meter), you are using it properly and you are unable to get any current readings using the 200 mA scale, then the meter is indicating that there is no readable current leak. Your voltage reading of .9 mV (.0009V) is meaningless.

In order for your battery to go from full charge to fully discharged in four hours, using a theoretical example of a new, fully charged 14AH battery, it would have to have a drain of about 3.5 amps, or 45 watts over that time. If something that drastic were happening, you probably would have found it.

When you say that the battery is "dead" after four hours, have you checked the voltage of the battery to confirm it? Do the lights still work? Or does the starter refuse to start it? Depending on the symptoms, it's possible that you could, for example, have a starter problem that allows the bike to start only when it comes right off the charger with extra voltage from the surface charge. After about four hours, the surface charge dissipates and the battery returns to normal lower voltage. If a starter were going bad, it might not work at the normal voltage range.

Try this. Fully charge the battery with all cables connected and read the voltage across the positive and negative terminals. Let the bike sit for four hours and read the voltage again. Report the results.

I have had batteries show a full charge that were dead as a doornail! I have also bought a battery that tested good till about half the day was over in my boat.I would take the battery in for a load test or find one you know is good.could just have a bad cell.

 

[chuckycheese]

Bad to worse

Bad to worse

Well, things have gone from bad to worse. I charged up the battery, reconnected everything and now when I push the starter button, there is no response. That was never the problem before...only a drained battery.

If this offers any clue.....all the lights work and are very bright, the horn works loudly....everything seems exactly right...except zero response from the starter. I double checked to see that I hooked everything up correctly and tightly and everything looks just fine. I'm sure my battery is still draining. Does it seem likely that I could push start it or wouldn't that work either?

UPDATE: As suggested in the Clymer book, I jumped the 2 posts on the starter relay and the starter turned over just fine!!! I also checked continuity of the starter switch, which also seems just fine.

 

[Boondocks]

I asked you to fully charge the battery with everything connected and read the voltage then, and again at least four hours later. Did you do this? Instead you say that you are sure that your battery is still draining, but haven't done any tests that confirm it. Bright lights and a loud horn are not symptoms of a dead battery.

Now we are off on a new symptom. Maybe your starter is failing. Maybe you forgot to replace the ignition fuse. Maybe your battery is bad, but I doubt it. Maybe the battery isn't failing. The bike should start if you push it.

From your last edit, it sounds like you may have a bad starter solenoid. I would like to help you but if you don't give me feedback on my requests I won't be able to help.

 

[chuckycheese]

Sorry

Sorry

Sorry...I did just as you said but may have failed to report everything. I charged up the battery yesterday and reconnected everything..and let it sit. Over a period of about 5 hours, it went from about 13.3V down to 12.2V. (Disconnected, it will maintain about 12.8 for many more hours than that.)

It was at that point that I recharged the battery on my trickle charger and discovered that the starter wouldn't turn over unless I crossed the terminals on the solenoid. If I do that, it turns over just fine.

I did re-check all the fuses and shuffled them around to make certain they were good..and they are.

In the Suzuki shop manual, they suggest a test for continuity by disconnecting the lead wire that goes to the starter motor, turning on the ignition and checking continuity between the two terminals on the starter replay. I did that (and I think I did it right since it's so simple) and DID NOT get continuity.

 

[Boondocks]

A good solenoid should make a clicking sound when its internal switch activates the starter. If the solenoid is bad, the OEM versions are spendy. You can get a riding mower solenoid for about $20 from a home & garden center that will work.

If your battery is going down to 12.2V in five hours when connected and will hold a charge at 12.8V disconnected, it would seem that either your meter is inaccurate or you aren't using it right. If this were a battery drain problem, it should be immediately detectable when the negative cable and terminal were tested in series for current flow. Something is wrong with this picture.

It seems more than coincidental that the solenoid would fail when the battery is losing charge. Maybe it was shorting to ground and causing the problem. If it was intermittent the current flow test might not catch it. Try charging the battery to full charge and let it sit 4-5 hours with the solenoid removed from the circuit and see if this stops the drain.

 

[chuckycheese]

Thanks

Thanks

Thanks, Philip. I guessed at the things you pointed out and hope you're right. I'm unclear what you meant about the meter readings as the battery drains but it's been a steady downward spiral. I'm simply measuring DC volts between positive and negative battery posts.

I'm hopeful that the problems are all being caused by the starter relay, as you suggest. I'm giving the battery a good trickle charge and will see what happens with everything in place, except the starter relay.8-[

 

[Boondocks]

...I'm unclear what you meant about the meter readings as the battery drains but it's been a steady downward spiral. I'm simply measuring DC volts between positive and negative battery posts.

Current drain readings are made using the DC A-mA meter scale in series between the negative battery terminal and the negative cable. Battery voltage readings are measured as you indicated.

Another bizarre possibility is that the battery negative post is loose or broken internally. If so, pressure put on the post when the cable is attached might cause the battery to internally self-discharge. Internal shorts are not detected by a current drain test, since the battery itself is defective.

If your battery isn't bad now, it soon will be if you don't find the source of the power loss. Deep discharges are very hard on conventional batteries, and they will lose the ability to hold a full charge if too many deep discharge cycles are experienced. If you had another battery, I would suggest that you use it to see if the results are different.

 

[chuckycheese]

Battery

Battery

Well, we'll see what happens! I haven't let my battery get too drained and I've only been charging it with a trickle charger, so I trust I've done no damage to my battery (which is only about 8 months old and has always seemed good and been well-maintained).

I do think I'll go to Lowe's and try to find a new starter relay that looks compatible. I don't know much about what I've done but, with your help, I think I've ruled a number of things out and limited the number of things it could be.

I've got a good charge on the battery and am monitoring it with the starter relay disconnected and everything else in place. I'll be in touch!!

 

[Boondocks]

If you are using a trickle charger that is unregulated and not a "smart" charger which stops charging and holds a float voltage, you will damage your battery if it is left connected too long. Cheap, unregulated trickle chargers, although they have a low charging current, will allow voltage to rise to unsafe levels over 15V and will damage the battery cells if left connected for extended periods.

 

[chuckycheese]

Yep

Yep

Yes, I'm aware that that's important. I use the Battery Tender Plus which I think is about as good as they come.

In any case, I checked my battery after letting it sit for 15 hours with the solenoid disconnected and everything else intact. It has drained slightly and is now measuring 12.65 volts. There may still be a slight loss somewhere but it would seem to me that the solenoid was probably responsible for most of the draining problem. I suppose there could be another reason but that's something I simply don't know about.

I'm off to Lowe's to get a new solenoid...and I'll see what happens. If this doesn't solve my problem, I'm taking it to an independent mechanic that works on old bikes on Monday...This project has been keeping me awake at night but it's not going to any longer.:-|

Thanks, Philip and also tconroy.:-D

 

[Boondocks]

Your battery hasn't drained slightly. It doesn't have a drain. After charging a battery has a temporary surface charge, which gradually diminishes over 4-8 hours until it reaches a stable true battery voltage.

The BCI (Battery Council International) standards for 100% charge on a flooded lead acid battery 4-8 hours after charging is 12.65V. It looks like you're back in business. \\/

 

[earlfor]

I wouldnt waste my money on replacing the solenoid. Unless the signal wire from the starter circuit is activated, the solenoid can not have internal continuity and there is no current flow possible. If the solenoid is activated (has continuity), your starter will be turning.

Earl

I'm off to Lowe's to get a new solenoid...and I'll see what happens. If this doesn't solve my problem, I'm taking it to an independent mechanic that works on old bikes on Monday...This project has been keeping me awake at night but it's not going to any longer.:-|

Thanks, Philip and also tconroy.:-D

 

[Boondocks]

I wouldnt waste my money on replacing the solenoid. Unless the signal wire from the starter circuit is activated, the solenoid can not have internal continuity and there is no current flow possible. If the solenoid is activated (has continuity), your starter will be turning.

Earl

Chucky, Earl is right. If you haven't checked your starter button (switch) for continuity and to make sure that you are getting voltage from the starter switch to the solenoid when the button is depressed, the solenoid may not be at fault. A bad starter switch could cause the same symptoms. Before you replace the solenoid, check the starter switch for continuity and voltage to the solenoid when the button is depressed. Thanks, Earl.

 

[chuckycheese]

Solenoid

Solenoid

Thanks, guys! (and welcome to the problem, Earl:-D )

I bought a solenoid at Lowe's but haven't opened it up because I thought I'd check here once more. I did check the continuity of the ignition but think I didn't check the switch itself, so I want to do that, as you suggest. By the way, the starter bypass on the clutch lever has long since been bypassed (and I checked that out again).

With the ignition on and my trusty assistant getting ready to push the starter button, where do I connect my probes? I'm thinking the red one goes to the green/yellow wire coming from the switch and the black one to a ground...is that correct? Am I checking for volts and hoping for around 12V?

Also, how can I check power to the solenoid when I push the starter button? I hate to give up after all your efforts. Thanks![-o<

 

[Boondocks]

With the ignition on and my trusty assistant getting ready to push the starter button, where do I connect my probes? I'm thinking the red one goes to the green/yellow wire coming from the switch and the black one to a ground...is that correct? Am I checking for volts and hoping for around 12V?

Right.

Also, how can I check power to the solenoid when I push the starter button? I hate to give up after all your efforts. Thanks![-o<

Power to the solenoid is supplied directly from the battery, and switched to the starter when the relay (solenoid) is activated by the starter button. If the starter button wire is hot when depressed, you should head a fairly loud clack from the relay when it is activated. If there is stilll no action from the solenoid, replace it.

 

[chuckycheese]

Almost

Almost

Well, I think we're almost there! I checked the voltage with the ignition on and the starter button depressed by unplugging the yellow/green wire that goes between the starter button and about 6 inches from the solenoid. I put the positive probe into the connection and grounded it.... It registered only .15 volts!! consistently (we tried several times).

Disconnected from the solenoid, the bike is still holding steady at about 12.5V. I think now I need to check the starter button and the wiring between the solenoid and the starter button..is that right?

Is it too early to get excited??8-[

 

[Boondocks]

Yes, it sounds like you're finally tracking it down.

I would check the starter button switch first, and doublecheck that you are getting 12V to the switch, and then 12V on the other side of the switch when depressed. If so, then trace the wiring from the switch to the solenoid looking for a short or break.

It's OK to start getting excited. When you're making progress you should feel good about it.

 

[chuckycheese]

Button

Button

Well, I took some emery paper and got the starter button all cleaned up and it fired right up! I noticed that I was only getting about 9.5V between the switch and the solenoid, so I was surprised that it started.

I'm not sure how to test the voltage into the switch...do I run my probes between the 2 wires on the switch?

Even though it runs, it's still not charging up my battery.