Bowl levels are the same, sooooo.....

[KEITH KRAUSE]

That plug shows almost zero effect from combustion.
The plug is telling you the combustion in that cylinder is very poor. No way a good running cylinder burns that cleanly.
From your past posts, it doesn't appear to be spark related or fuel not entering the cylinder.
I'd check compression before anything else.
When's the last time the valve clearances were checked...Head torqued...etc?

 

[gsBert]

scud: keith has a point, there's no point in fiddling with carbs unless you have good compression.
if you think your comp is good, tear down your carbs. i believe you've been avoiding this so far, and yet it's the easiest thing in the world. lol, just make sure your bike is in gear when you push them back into the boots...
let me know whats going on with them ok?
and tell me all your jet sizes and needle numbers and positions while you're at it

 

[Scud]

Keith,

I purchased the bike from the wife of a deceased pilot, the last time valves were checked is an approximate but I would say they have not been checked in at least 6,500 miles. Should they be done? I am a little afraid of delving into this one.....

I will try to get a compressiona tester and let you know what I find.

Head torqued.....hmmmm.....not exactly sure when that was last done either.

Bert,

As mentioned in a previous post, I did a thorough cleaning of the carbs last winter and replaced all the rubber, I feel that they do not need taken apart again. A check of fuel levels in the bowls shows that they are all within spec. My Clymer manual says that the float height should be between 21.5 and 23.5 MM

I want to thank you Bert for the lenghty and detailed post, but I really do not want to tear my carbs apart again...did I mention that I do not wish to tear my carbs apart again..?? The pilots, main and air screw are all the originals that have been cleaned in carb cleaner and were blown out with compressed air before being put back in.

I do not have pods, I have the original airbox ( that makes taking the carbs in and out a real treat....got good at it though last year).

These are CV carbs, I do not believe the needles adjust, if they do I have not monkeyed with them???

I all about renting a bad movie though at this point..... :x

I keep my bike on the sidestand at all times, I do not think I know how to operate the side stand

I am going right now to check on a compression tester and will let you guys know what I find out.....the plot thickens.....

Thanks again for all your help everyone,

Scud

 

[Scud]

As expected....the local shop does not have a compression tester, I have a call into a mechanic friend who may have one (car mechanic...not a motorcycle mechanic).

I'll keep you posted.

Scud

 

[Hoomgar]

Any of the Advance Auto Parts or Auto Zone or Pep Boys or places like that will carry a compression tester. Do you have any of those near you?

 

[Scud]

Yes,

There is one in Rexburg, I will look into that possibly tomorrow.

Thanks,

Scud

 

[steve4mc]

difference in heating rate of inside and outside cylinders.

difference in heating rate of inside and outside cylinders.

Scud:

It is perfectly normal for the inside cylinders to heat up quicker than the outside cylinders. Said another way, cyls 1 and 4 are going to take longer to heat up than 2 and 3. They have more cooling fin area and more air going by when moving.

I still say just ride the dadgum thing. It's running way better than mine.

 

[Scud]

Steve,

You are right, I should just ride the dadgum thing, but something is not right and I would like to know why, its just me I guess.

I will ride the dadgum thing to Rexburg (45 miles one way) and get a compression tester, how about that!

Scud

 

[Scud]

Ok all,...

Here are the readings from my compression test. First, I took her for a 20 mile roundtrip to warm her up and after a tem minute rest:

#1 - 120 lbs.
#2 - 120 lbs.
#3 - 120 lbs.
#4 - 116 lbs.

Does this tell you guys anything, remember, #1 spark plug still looks like new, no carbon on the rim or porcelain.

Am I a worry wart?

Scud

 

[gsBert]

no you're not a worry wart, youre a lazy no good bum, lol
you will need to take your carbs apart if you want to get your answer.
well, you might save yourself the trouble if you find a vacuum leak somewhere...

come on man, i can have the carbs off the bike, completely cleaned and put back on in less time than it takes to do a 20 mile roundtrip. do the teardown, it's safer than having someone tell you over the wire that your bike is fine or not...
plus, everyone thinks your bike is running just fine, you and i just think your cylinder 1 is running a little bit lean. (and i want to know what your jetting is and copy it)

if you're not willing to takem apart, quitchawhining and stop putting scotchguard on your #1 plug, lol.

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

plus, everyone thinks your bike is running just fine, you and i just think your cylinder 1 is running a little bit lean.

Well, I don't think his bike is running right either, at least not #1. A plug burning that clean isn't a sign that the cylinder is running right, it's a sign of running lean (the leanest I've ever seen) or poor combustion. I can say I've seen some jetting set ups that were WAY off on the lean side, showed ALL the classic lean symptoms (surging/hesitation/pinging/spitting out the filters/and even pre-ignition of the plug) but the darn plug still didn't run as clean as this plug. :?
For good combustion you need spark, fuel, compression. The other 3 cylinders are running well (tan) with the same compression, so we'll rule that out. The compression test was necessary though. Any competent shop would test compression first before blaming spark or carburetion. To bad the test was a little inconvenient for you.
So that brings us back to fuel or spark.
For fuel, you say the carbs were cleaned, rebuilt, jetted the same, floats adjusted the same, new o-rings...You also say you have equal amounts of fuel in the bowls and could smell fuel on the #1 plug. Also, the manifolds are new. Correct??? It's a little hard to read back and look for everything you say you've checked/repaired, so tell us if any of these things were NOT done or checked.
Also, you said your model doesn't have o-rings in the manifolds?? I thought your model DID have manifold o-rings?? We have to be able to rule out an intake leak. Does the bike idle rpm rise quite a bit once warmed up?
I did notice reading back that you didn't do the plug lead swap as requested to rule out poor/weaker spark. You said you swapped the plugs only. I want you to swap #1 lead with #4 lead. Leave the plugs as they are. Now see what happens to the plug. I suggest this because it's very quick and easy to do. If you have a connection problem with the #1 lead, then the problem will follow that lead. It could be just a dirty/loose connection where the cap threads into the lead. It could also be where the lead comes out of the coil. If the coils are stock, the lead is probably molded into the coil and checking for a poor/dirty connections is difficult. Most often, any poor connection is at the cap and lead though. Then test the spark quality to the others in a dark area.
If no problems are found with the plug leads and spark quality, then we can focus on fuel problems.
To check for fuel, I would crank the motor with #1 plug lead removed. Then remove plug and make sure the plug is wet with fuel. I would then compare the result with the other cylinders, or at least one of them. If you find that it looks like #1 isn't getting as much fuel, then you may have an intake leak as mentioned before, or the intake valve clearance could be too wide and the valve isn't opening long enough for the correct amount of fuel to enter the cylinder??

 

[Scud]

Keith and Bert,

Thanks for the replies, I will answer questions in order.

Bert, I

f I do take the carbs apart it will be this winter (summers are short here, I want to ride!, it takes me a little longer to take the carbs apart then you.. When I do I will let you know what my jetting is exactly.

Keith,

I kinda enjoyed doing the compression test, the nly bummer was having to drive 45 minutes to Rexburg to get the tool , and it really was not that bad because I got to ride my motorcyle

The manifold boots are NOT new but they are still pliable wtih no visible cracks.

My bike does NOT have manifold 'O-Rings'. (TSCC Model)

The engine does NOT increase in idle after warmed up, in fact it sometimes will loose about 100 RPM after warmed up.

I did indeed swap lead 4 with lead 1 placing number 4 lead on number 1 cylinder spark plug and number 1 lead on number 4 cylinder spark plug. The results were the same, the number 1 plug still looked like new after the lead swap. I then swapped number 4 plug with number 1 plug and the plug in question (number 1 ) did get a little carbon build up on it when it was placed in the number 4 cylinder.

I will check spark quality when it gets dark out and compare them to one another.

I will also disconnect number 1 spark plug lead and crank engine, then check for gas on number 1 plug.

And again, thanks guys for the info, I will let you know what I find out.

Scud

 

[Anonymous]

Spark, fuel and compression are not the only three things that will cause non-firing. You could have a bad spark plug. Have you tried another spark plug in the #1 cylinder? If you have swapped out that plug in all this affair, then you might want to find a mechanic with a laser thermometer or buy one. They are around $75. You can then check the temperature of each pipe at the cylinder head to see if they have equal or near equal temperatures.

 

[Hoomgar]

Scud, if I were you and if you have time I would do the plug swap again and this time take it for a good ride. At least a half hour. See what the results are then. If you say there was a mild change in the amount of carbon on plug 1 when you swapped them then try a longer run and see if the problem does actually follow the wire. To go with that I would clean both 1 and 4 plugs really good first and then go for the long haul. This will give you a definitive answer before tearing into carbs. If it is spark related, this will prove it or show that it is not if that is not the issue. Then you wont feel as bad knowing what the issue is. Your getting down there. Carbs can come off, be worked on, completely reasembled and back on the bike all in one evening even by a slow poke like me. You can do it man, your running lean, you are right to be concerned about it. Don't let it like this for the whole season. Your engine has good compression and seems in good shape. It would be a shame to ruin it over something like this. I encourage you to stick with this and finalize it. It will be worth every minute of the pain. And you have a mjor advantage over a lot of others, you have the right guys helping you.

 

[Scud]

George,

I have indeed replaced the plug in question because I thought that maybe it was a bad plug, but the new plug had the same results. I think I may pass on the laser thermometer for the moment.

Hoomgar,

You are so right, I just need to find the time I guess, and by the looks of it it will be later then sooner.

My folks live in Bozeman, Montana about 200 miles north of here, maybe I will take a trip up there after I clean, or replace, number 1 and 4 spark plugs.

Nothing like peace of mind, thanks again for all your help. Keep the ideas coming and I will let you know what I find out.

Scud

 

[Scud]

Hey all,

Just wanted to let you know that I have not forgotten about my problem, just have not had time this weekend to work on it.

This week hopefully..

I did get my battery LED working however! ((Thanks Focus.., I did connect it to the 'thingy between the handlebars and the guages'....(Earl.....the other way provided a thrill but no other exiciting or conclusive results.. 8O ) and grounded it to the headlight ground.))

Cheers,

Scud

 

[Scud]

Ok all,

I took her for a 150 miler and the plug in question (#1) has some carbon on the rim!!!!!!!!!! (Porcelain is still whits though...)

So after a long ride it did seem to develop some carbon, does this help in anyway?

Also and maybe off the subject, I looked under the bike and my exhaust pipes caught my eye, they are rusted out in several spots on the underside (water on the low spots), and have created holes and large areas that are rusted through. Would this add or be a main contributor to my problem with regards to the plug in question (#1)? :?

Scud

 

[flyingace]

I don't want to stir up a hornets nest, but I think this bike is running great and Scuds' concern for the one plug is a little overboard. A bike running on three cylinders or ready to hole a piston does not run/idle as well as he describes. The plug in the picture looks fine to me - not 'out of the box' as he first described. He is lucky to have an older bike that runs this well.

This doesn't mean a compression test is a bad idea - just to confirm the motors condition.

 

[gsBert]

the plug is fine. white plugs are fine. a hot/lean plug doesnt look out of the box, it looks black with white spots on it.
im repeating myself, my racecar gave plugs that looked jsut like that.
your bike is fine, you could richen that cylinder out a bit to be safe if you wanted to cool it down a notch but it's fine.

i just finished jetting my 1150 properly with the slingshot carbs, after running it, i get all 4 plugs that look just liek yours. thats how i know it's jetted right.

look at the electrode colour to determine if your plug is ok, not the insulator. your electrode is tan, which means youre running jsut fine.

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

With all respect. See? Lots of smiley faces, which means I'm not trying to stir a hornets nest either.
I really don't know what's going on with that plug. It could be very lean, anything's possible, but I'm sticking with a combustion problem. Somethings lacking in the mix. I don't know how much more obvious it could be.
A plug burning anything close to a correct mixture doesn't look that clean. I know race machines are set up to burn leaner, everyone knows that, but not any normal street bike. The fact that his other 3 cylinders are running tan plugs tells you something's different about that cylinder. You know the other 3, with the SAME JETTING are running right. What would be done here, install richer jetting in the one carb to try to richen it and make it burn closer to the others? That's not right. That's trying to compensate for the real problem. I don't know if I got my hands on that bike that I could figure it out, but at least we've tried to find the problem. And there still is a problem.
You can listen to others tell you that cylinder is burning right if you like, but you do know better. White plugs are not fine. Look at any plug chart you like. See any plugs like in your photo (no carbon)? And on a street bike, you always look at the insulator color. With the cleaner fuels today, some say a tan color is not necessary to achieve, but even Dynojet will tell you to look for a good shade of gray on the insulator. Run white plugs on a long trip and you're daring pre-ignition of the plugs and damaging the motor.
I've jetted a lot of bikes and I've never had a clean running plug like that get "fixed" by going up a size on a jet. The only plugs I've seen like that were missing something in the combustion mix. Weak spark, lack of fuel or poor compression.
And lastly, not necessarily meaning you Scud, I've met people who say they believe their bike is running fine. But after riding it myself, knowing how a particular bike should run, I know it's not running as well as it should. I've read other members posts right here who didn't even realize they were running on 3 cylinders, let alone "3 1/2" cylinders. They said the bike runs fine....not knowing how the bike really can run.
Without looking at the bike myself and having to go on what you say you've done, I'd check the valve clearances next, if for no other reason than it's scheduled maintenance.