carb to fuel injection Builders Log

[beingblueeyes]

dam. well thanks for getting back to me, I would have felt like a real tard if I had gotten it and then installed it and tried to use it with EFI... :lol:

 

[ArttuH]

do you sell them?
also dose anyone know the output of a stock 550 stator?

Yes and no I have built few units for my friends but I don't produce and sell them in large scale. So if you really want one we can discuss about it

Sorry, no idea about the 550 stator. For comparison my 1100 outputs 250W and it's enough for all standard lights, a pump that draws about 4.5A and heated wideband lambda sensor. But then it's pretty much on the edge. For example changing the headlight bulb to 100W version is now too much.

And about reliability of the MS1. Based on my experiences they are reliable if built and installed properly. Of course you can get all kind weird symptoms if there are glitches in installation but I don't think that MS2 would be any better in this sense. Anyhow, MS2 provides some benefits so it's not bad choice either. Or you can always start with MS1 and upgrade it later to MS2 just by replacing the processor.

 

[duaneage]

Most GS bikes only have 250 to 280 watts of power from the stator. I could also add the stock RR is not a beefy unit, although I offer a Honda kit that can handle 450 watts, the stator is not going to tolerate more than 20 amps total draw. The bikes usually draw 5-12 amps depending on what is going on.

You need to consider the current of the fuel pump as well. Motors have high initial starting current but in operation draw a little less. Add in the injectors and any electronics and you are starting to eat a lot more.

One way to conserve power for these add ons is to go LED for dash lights, turnsignals, and brake lights. You can recover about 15 watts with dash lights and maybe another 40 with turnsignals and the brake. It's a game of save every watt. I've never done a comprehensive tally of what all that eats but I am sure it is a lot. The blinker seems to dim the lights at idle, that kind of voltage sway would play hell with the injectors.

The only other alternative is some kind of aux power source. Now we are getting into real engineering.

 

[beingblueeyes]

For comparison my 1100 outputs 250W and it's enough for all standard lights, a pump that draws about 4.5A and heated wideband lambda sensor. But then it's pretty much on the edge. For example changing the headlight bulb to 100W version is now too much.

And about reliability of the MS1. Based on my experiences they are reliable if built and installed properly. Of course you can get all kind weird symptoms if there are glitches in installation but I don't think that MS2 would be any better in this sense. Anyhow, MS2 provides some benefits so it's not bad choice either. Or you can always start with MS1 and upgrade it later to MS2 just by replacing the processor.

i emailed DIYautotune last night
me: hi. fast question regarding what comes with the assembled megasquirt 2 pcb3.57 and microsquart units? do both of them come with the megasquirt pigtails (wiring harness)? also what are the differences between the two? dose the microsquart still have the ability to tune in 12x12 and control the ign.?
DIYatutotune: The Microsquirt comes with a 30" long harness; the Megasquirt comes with a solder type DB37 and DB15 connector but a true harness is sold separately.
The Microsquirt has two ignition outputs while the MS2 has one standard ignition output that can be expanded to up to six using the Extra code. The MS2 has the ability to drive a stepper IAC and more low impedance injectors (the Microsquirt is limited to two low impedance or eight high impedance injectors; I've seen full sized MS2s used with as many as sixteen injectors). Both use 12 x 12 tables and the same firmware. Let me know if you have any questions.
me: thanks for getting back to me so fast. One more question dose the MS2 and microsquirt have the same processor?
DIYatutotune: Yes, the processor is the same between the two units.




from that it would be cheaper to get the microsquit instead of getting the megasquirt 2 and then buying the pigtail for it and then the tuning cable and the microsquirt is also smaller. why type of ign. dose our bikes use? Dose megasquirt support it? or would I need to pick up a dyna ign. to have convert the ign signal?

Most GS bikes only have 250 to 280 watts of power from the stator. I could also add the stock RR is not a beefy unit, although I offer a Honda kit that can handle 450 watts, the stator is not going to tolerate more than 20 amps total draw. The bikes usually draw 5-12 amps depending on what is going on.

You need to consider the current of the fuel pump as well. Motors have high initial starting current but in operation draw a little less. Add in the injectors and any electronics and you are starting to eat a lot more.

One way to conserve power for these add ons is to go LED for dash lights, turnsignals, and brake lights. You can recover about 15 watts with dash lights and maybe another 40 with turnsignals and the brake. It's a game of save every watt. I've never done a comprehensive tally of what all that eats but I am sure it is a lot. The blinker seems to dim the lights at idle, that kind of voltage sway would play hell with the injectors.

The only other alternative is some kind of aux power source. Now we are getting into real engineering.

good suggestions about the light bulbs, I found a stator on ebay that increases output about 20% so even if it increases output only 15% and i use the lowest valve of 250 watts oem stator output I still end up with 287.5 watts and using the equation 12 watts/12 volts = 1 amp (at a fixed 12 volt even thought when charging the battery will be around 14 volts) I end up with 23.958 useable amps at 12 volts. With that and the light bulb trick I think I will have enough. What about converting the head light to H.I.D? Most only need 3.1 amps to work.

 

[ArttuH]

rom that it would be cheaper to get the microsquit instead of getting the megasquirt 2 and then buying the pigtail for it and then the tuning cable and the microsquirt is also smaller. why type of ign. dose our bikes use? Dose megasquirt support it? or would I need to pick up a dyna ign. to have convert the ign signal?

Yep, I would prefer Microsquirt over standard MS2 box. The most significant benefits are smaller size, sealed case and connector, two VR sensor inputs for crank sensors and two coil drivers. So with it you can make full injection and ignition control for four cylinder engine without any modifications.

The stock ignition is wasted spark ignition with two coils and dual VR pickups. For ignition you have two options with the Microsquirt. You can leave stock ignition to handle spark side and take RPM signal for the Microsquirt from the coil. Or you can use the Microsquirt to control spark as well. It should work with stock coils and VR pickups. You just need to lock the mechanical advancer. I would recommend to start with fuel control only. It's much simpler to get it running when you don't need to troubleshoot both sides at the same time.

Edit: And yes, HID conversion for the head light will save some power, 10-20W depending on the original bulb.

 

[beingblueeyes]

Yep, I would prefer Microsquirt over standard MS2 box. The most significant benefits are smaller size, sealed case and connector, two VR sensor inputs for crank sensors and two coil drivers. So with it you can make full injection and ignition control for four cylinder engine without any modifications.

The stock ignition is wasted spark ignition with two coils and dual VR pickups. For ignition you have two options with the Microsquirt. You can leave stock ignition to handle spark side and take RPM signal for the Microsquirt from the coil. Or you can use the Microsquirt to control spark as well. It should work with stock coils and VR pickups. You just need to lock the mechanical advancer. I would recommend to start with fuel control only. It's much simpler to get it running when you don't need to troubleshoot both sides at the same time.

Edit: And yes, HID conversion for the head light will save some power, 10-20W depending on the original bulb.

Ok I’m going to go with the microsquirt to control the fuel (and the spark down the line as suggested) i dont think im going to jump on all lights just yet, but i will after i get the bike going.

For the fuel pump side I just picked up a dented Honda CBR 600rr tank with fuel pump and gas cap and I will try to mate the CBR in tank pump with the gs tank

 

[beingblueeyes]

just got the microsquirt
here is a link
going to go sit down
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/microsquirt-engine-management-system-p-131.html

 

[Old Colt]

Sorry for not getting back on for a few days to answer what I started. The Microsqirt will do you well. In some ways it is a git restricting since the D&G code is no where as nice as the extra code but I hope they have the the Microsquirt sorted well enough now.
One part I did not get to answer but may be of value to others is about the processor resets. This has to do with how well the processor deals with electrical noise. The newer processor is just much better with this. Having an engine shut down when you use the turn signals sucks.

When the time comes for ignition pickups you can consider the stock 1980 and newer electronic units to trigger the MS. Remove the mechanical advance and lock the rotor to about 70? and setup the timing in the MS. Dyn products are a great way to go also.

You may consider a wideband unit to let you see what is happening. The most cost effective and stable units I have found are from Techedge, Their 2J1 unit is great, http://wbo2.com/2j/default.htm

 

[beingblueeyes]

Sorry for not getting back on for a few days to answer what I started. The Microsqirt will do you well. In some ways it is a git restricting since the D&G code is no where as nice as the extra code but I hope they have the the Microsquirt sorted well enough now.
One part I did not get to answer but may be of value to others is about the processor resets. This has to do with how well the processor deals with electrical noise. The newer processor is just much better with this. Having an engine shut down when you use the turn signals sucks.

When the time comes for ignition pickups you can consider the stock 1980 and newer electronic units to trigger the MS. Remove the mechanical advance and lock the rotor to about 70? and setup the timing in the MS. Dyn products are a great way to go also.

You may consider a wideband unit to let you see what is happening. The most cost effective and stable units I have found are from Techedge, Their 2J1 unit is great, http://wbo2.com/2j/default.htm

Its cool old colt, that?s is precisely the info I needed about the processor resets. I can see how when using a blinker and it killing your motor could be annoying/bike asking to have the oil beat out of it. Setting the microsquirt to run the bike ign. sounds much easier then I would ever guess. That seems like a really good wideband o2 for the money but I already have a zeitronix unit (hade it for 3 years about and still love it) if it comes down to me wanting one of the 550 all the time I will be buying that one.

Off subject: old colt it checked out your web page and took a gander at your busa powered car and let me say Sr. that is one fine machine you built yourself. I?m impressed about a motorcycle motor in something like that but even more taken back by your suspension work. Do you have plans of putting tags on it (along with lights ect.) and running it on the roads?

Just watched the movie "faster" and it was worth the time spent

I hate killing time for parts to show up

 

[Old Colt]

Thank you,
This Busa powered car is big fun and its biggest problem is that I can only run it at events.
But yes I have plans for a street car. The chassis is drawn and most details completed. I also have most components collected for the car. It will be a front engine car looking like some classic British cars, Lotus Elan, Elva Courier etc. Actually closest to the kit cars like the Fisher fury but with a much safer and stronger chassis. The car is designed to be powered with 4cylinder and V6 car engines as well as bike power and unlike the Lotus 7 derived kits mine is designed for 3-400HP as a base. That is in a 1000 to 1200 Lb street car. The car will be stupid fast and handle as well.

I have intentions of producing kits but may not have the funding or energy to achieve this. But the prototype will be a hoot.

 

[beingblueeyes]

I just got the intake boots in the mail today and there to big the tb side is 2" 1/4 (tbs are 2"od) and the mounting holes are to wide (not to surprising) but what I was surprised at the most is even the "O" ring seal on the back of the boot is too big to fit the oem location. So my options are to keep looking and stabbing in the dark and maybe getting something that will fit OR trying to heat up the stock boot in boiling water and stretch it over the tb's

i also just picked up this

it’s a stock exhaust from a 04 gsxr 750, I figure I can mod it enough to work with my bike and convert it from two 2 into 1's to a 4 into 1 setup for easier wideband tuning (weld o2 nut on collector) and it will also be lighter


ok how it stands now

Parts I have:
07 CBR 600RR fuel tank w/ pump= in the mail
microsquirt= in the mail
04 gsxr 750 header w/ muff= in the mail
o2 bung= in the mail
Throttle bodys (2 inch OD on the motor side. forgot what they came from)
Fuel rail w/ FPR
Injectors


Parts I need:
Fuel lines
Sensors
Modify the fuel tank for the return fuel line
intake boots

 

[beingblueeyes]

Ok this morning after taking mom out to breakfast I trying to heat up one for the stock boots in boiling water and stretch it over the tb's. After letting the test boot sit in boiling water for 5 min. uninterrupted i tried to fit it on one for the tb?s with no luck. I then tried to expand the boot by pressing it down over a 2" ball (for towing) and holding the boot there until it cooled with no luck so I?m going to have to do more looking to find boots that will work

 

[RJ]

You may want to try some combo of radiator hoses. Slide a chunk of hose over the throttle body on one side and the stock intake boot on the other. You may need to slide a piece of pipe inside of the stock boot so that you can clamp down on the radiator hose. Not elegant but maybe a place to start.

 

[beingblueeyes]

You may want to try some combo of radiator hoses. Slide a chunk of hose over the throttle body on one side and the stock intake boot on the other. You may need to slide a piece of pipe inside of the stock boot so that you can clamp down on the radiator hose. Not elegant but maybe a place to start.

that?s a good idea, it would get me by enough for when the microsquirt shows up the motor could run

 

[Guest]

Too Big!

Too Big!

Man, those TB's are much too big. What is the I.D. Bore? I think they might have come from an R1 or perhaps a ZX12. I would have recomended the stock GPZ1100 TB's. They have a 34mm bore and the spacing is nearly perfect for a GS1100. Just ask Arttu. So may even fit the stock 550 intake boots too and are much shorter in length than the tb's you have now. Then use the GPZ11 fuel pump. From your petcock and you may even be able to get away with using a "T" in line instead of a new return line to the tank.
GREG

 

[drhach]

I would think that you could compensate for the throttle body size by making an airbox and restricting its opening. You can't over fuel the bike, the main issue is throttle response. Using a smallish airbox and a small opening in the airbox should help. I've shopped for the Gpz throttle bodies and they are getting rarer and more expensive by the day. If you can adapt a more current and common system, I think you'd be better off.

Can you weld? If so, maybe you could make a spigot out of aluminum or steel. Then go to someplace like www.siliconeintakes.com. They sell tons of oddball sized tubing. They even have reducers so you can go from one size on the TB's to another on the intake spigots.

Also, regarding the tank, I don't see any reason why you couldn't just use an external pump. Something like


Tank->Line with a T in it->Pump-> Fuel Rail ->Pressure regulator->T in fuel line.

You might have issues with your fuel getting a little warm, but it shouldn't be a deal breaker and you wouldn't need a dedicated return orifice in the tank.

 

[beingblueeyes]

Man, those TB's are much too big. What is the I.D. Bore? I think they might have come from an R1 or perhaps a ZX12. I would have recomended the stock GPZ1100 TB's. They have a 34mm bore and the spacing is nearly perfect for a GS1100. Just ask Arttu. So may even fit the stock 550 intake boots too and are much shorter in length than the tb's you have now. Then use the GPZ11 fuel pump. From your petcock and you may even be able to get away with using a "T" in line instead of a new return line to the tank.
GREG

Very good suggestions, I went with the tb's I?m using because
a: I had it already (along with the injectors w/pig tails and fuel rail that fit it)
b: I?m thinking about doing the hole 550 block 650 cylinders punched out for 750 pistons thing in time
c: I think the size of the tbs is a good thing because the air going throw them will not be moving that fast due to the size but will increase velocity when going into the chamber/head after the fuel has been injected due to the funneling down of the 2" od of the throttle body?s to the stock (for now) port size

I looked for a gpz fuel pump on ebay and they all looked old and near death (and as of right now (may 12/09 @ 9:34 pm) there are none on ebay) I?m going with a 07 cbr fuel pump that I will make work because its new and has lots of life left in it. I?m still thinking about the idea of "T"'ing the return line into the fuel pump surge tank feed line and it?s not sitting well with me, for some reason I keep thinking of the fuel psi creeping up (if the return line didn?t need to be there OEM car builders of the 90's/00's wouldn?t put it on to save $$ and I do realize that some have done away with the return line)

I would think that you could compensate for the throttle body size by making an airbox and restricting its opening. You can't over fuel the bike, the main issue is throttle response. Using a smallish airbox and a small opening in the airbox should help. I've shopped for the Gpz throttle bodies and they are getting rarer and more expensive by the day. If you can adapt a more current and common system, I think you'd be better off.

Can you weld? If so, maybe you could make a spigot out of aluminum or steel. Then go to someplace like www.siliconeintakes.com. They sell tons of oddball sized tubing. They even have reducers so you can go from one size on the TB's to another on the intake spigots.

Also, regarding the tank, I don't see any reason why you couldn't just use an external pump. Something like


Tank->Line with a T in it->Pump-> Fuel Rail ->Pressure regulator->T in fuel line.

You might have issues with your fuel getting a little warm, but it shouldn't be a deal breaker and you wouldn't need a dedicated return orifice in the tank.

Yes I can weld (not alm.) what?s a "spigot"? I?m going to end up building a serge tank and putting that "internal fuel pump" in it because i think ill have the best of both worlds (i.e no cutting apart the fuel tank-external fuel pump that?s new-I won?t need to worry as much about fuel sloshing around in the tank and feeding a "air bubble" to a regular external fuel pump)most likely ill will run a "T" line to the fuel surge tank from the return line. But like I told gmansyz I?m still thinking about it

 

[beingblueeyes]

Well today I’m back in the hunt
I think I’m going to mount the throttle bodies to the motor using the modified stock carb boots. I burnt the rubber off in large chunks use a blow torch, and then I hit it with the wire wheel to get the remainder of the burnt rubber off. Then I cut off the carb sink port and sanded it. I attached the throttle bodies to the mod carb boot using a rubber reducer (2” to 1 ?) I know the mod stock carb boot doesn’t have that much area to attach the rubber reducer and maintain integrity under its own weight so I will build a brace from the throttle bodies to the cam cover bolts, so the only thing the boots need to do is keep vac . dose anyone know of a good bonding agent I could use on the reducer to mo0d carb boot? I’m thing of auto high temp silicone.
Here are some pics.

 

[donimo]

I am new to bikes, but with cars I know it really didn't matter that much about TB size. With carbs it matters because you need a certain amount of air velocity to draw the fuel out of the jets etc, but if you are injectin an already atomized fuel spray (the injector) then bore size has much less effect on throttle response.

A good example is a popular edelbrock EFI conversion kit uses a 1400cfm TB for a 302ci motor that couldnt handle a 650cfm carb without tuning issues...

again I know I am a bike newb, and I now know that putting a different muffler on a bike can call for jetting changes, in cars I have run open headers with no jetting issues so there you go...

 

[beingblueeyes]

ok all, I got the 04 gsxr 750 header today and I can say without a shadow of a doubt it will never fit un-modified. The pipes that go into the motor are much too big, there at the wrong angle. So it will need to be chopped up a MADE to fit :evil:

here are some pics showing the stock header and the gsxr header side to side